The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 16, 2013, 09:09 AM   #1
hounddawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 760
ignore this thread

Been reading a lot on loading cast and on Matt Darda's site he recommends the Lyman M style 2 stage die to prevent damage to the bullet when loading. Not a problem will order one soon. However I pulled a bullet that I had reloaded using very little flare on the lee expander and seated using a Lee seating doe, I did not use the crimping yet I still found a .001 groove in the bullet from the seating die. So the question is what seating do the cast bullet users here recommend that will not damage the bullet in any way.

click thumbnail for full size



the pulled bullet is on the right

edit. cleaned and polished the Lee die, then carefully adjusted it and eliminated the ring
__________________
Government is like a baby. An alimentary canal with a big appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other. - Ronald Reagan

Last edited by hounddawg; January 16, 2013 at 09:31 AM. Reason: I figured it out
hounddawg is offline  
Old January 16, 2013, 09:37 AM   #2
chiefr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2010
Location: AR
Posts: 1,242
I always bell the case just enough to allow the bullet to enter the case without peeling off any lead when using cast bullets.
There is nothing wrong with crimping the case lip slightly into the lead. I do it often. I have experimented with heavy & light crimps and found group size varies proportional to the crimp. I have also taper crimped. I have found that when using some powders, you get the best performance with heavy crimps.
When shooting cast bullets thru the magnum revolvers, heavy crimping is paramount or the recoil will unseat the bullets.
If the bullet has a cannelure, I usually try to crimp inside it, However, this may not always be the case. Best to experiment & determine what is best for your gun.
chiefr is offline  
Old January 16, 2013, 09:44 AM   #3
hounddawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 760
well first order of business for me is when I shoot up what I have on hand is to order .356 or .357 bullets. Going to send Dardas slugs from both my pistols and see what they recommend.
__________________
Government is like a baby. An alimentary canal with a big appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other. - Ronald Reagan
hounddawg is offline  
Old January 16, 2013, 02:16 PM   #4
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,276
Looks to me like you had the body of the seating die screwed down too far and engaged the internal crimp shoulder. AFAIK, only the Lee Dead Length seating dies for rifle have no built-in crimp shoulder.

Back the seating die body out a couple of turns and put resized and charged case in. Run the body down until you feel the crimp shoulder just touch the case mouth. Lock the die body temporarily in place with the lock ring. Seat a bullet. It should now be too long. Turn in the seating depth adjustment on top of the die body until the bullet is just maybe 0.020" longer than your desired COL. Loosen the lock ring and turn the whole body in a little at a time until the expander flare is just ironed out, plus maybe a little bit of crimp bite into the lead, but not enough to make the case mouth OD over the bullet narrower than minimum standard for headspacing. Lock the die body in place. If the COL didn't come out exactly as you wanted, adjust the top only until bullets start to finish with the correct COL.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member
Unclenick is offline  
Old January 16, 2013, 06:47 PM   #5
hounddawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 760
thanks Nick, that is exactly what was going on, eliminated the ring entirely also considering abandoning cast entirely and going to Montana Golds or trying some .356 cast bullets. The CZ75 Barrel slug measures out at .354 and the M&P barrel at .355. Would .356's be too big for the CZ?
__________________
Government is like a baby. An alimentary canal with a big appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other. - Ronald Reagan
hounddawg is offline  
Old January 16, 2013, 07:05 PM   #6
Vance
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 16, 2011
Location: North Bend, OR
Posts: 493
.356 will work just fine in your CZ.
Vance is offline  
Old January 18, 2013, 10:11 PM   #7
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,276
It's not at all too much to shoot into the bore. Many guns actually have better accuracy with a 0.002" over groove diameter in cast or other soft bullets. The only potential issue is one I ran into with .45 Auto one time with some extra thick neck brass from one of the the former iron curtain countries. Those cases barely chambered even with normal .451 bullets, and would not chamber with fat cast bullets seated in them. All others would, though.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member
Unclenick is offline  
Old January 19, 2013, 09:02 AM   #8
hounddawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 760
thanks Nick next order going to try some .356's next month, got all the .355's loaded up. I am real curious to see how my latest concoctions shoot after adjusting my seating die and no crimp die.

I never realized there was so much difference between loading cast ans loading jacketed until recently, thanks to all for the education.
__________________
Government is like a baby. An alimentary canal with a big appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other. - Ronald Reagan
hounddawg is offline  
Old January 19, 2013, 01:31 PM   #9
mikld
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2009
Location: Southern Oregon!
Posts: 1,088
The pic shows a definate crimp on the bullet. As suggested back off the crimp and/or run the seating stem down and raise the die in the press.

Semi auto rounds should only be crimped enough to remove any flare in the case mouth. If you use an M die, you will still have to straighten out the case mouth to enable chambering...
__________________
My Anchor is holding fast!
mikld is offline  
Old January 19, 2013, 03:25 PM   #10
hounddawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 760
thanks Mikld, I backed off on my seating die and seated then pulled several rounds, no more line. Used the Lee through the powder die to give just enough flare so they would sit in the case and not shave the lead. Going to try some out tomorrow and see if they shoot a bit tighter
__________________
Government is like a baby. An alimentary canal with a big appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other. - Ronald Reagan
hounddawg is offline  
Old January 20, 2013, 09:37 AM   #11
rodfac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 1,518
I concur that belling the mouth of the case is necessary to prevent damage to the bullet...but have found over the years, that removing that belled mouth is difficult with a normal rolled crimp/seating die. Instead, I've used another sizing die with the decapping pin removed to remove the bell.

I load .45 ACP in a four die set-up on a Dillon 550B...Sizing and decapping, followed by case mouth belling/powder charging, then bullet seating, and finally, taper crimping at the 4th station, on another FL sizing die with the decapping rod removed.

I'd also say that the small amount of crimping shown in your pic is probably insignificant accuracy wise, at normal hand gun ranges, say out to 25-30 yds. Unless you're engaged in NRA Bullseye competition, I'd not worry about it...

For best accuracy, lead alloy bullets should be sized .001-.002" over groove dia. as determined by slugging the bore. You might find that an exceptionally tight case neck may actually swage the bullet down from your carefully measured and sized offering as you seat it. With softer alloys, it can be a problem.

Lyman's "M" die does a great job in sizing the inside of the neck for a good snug fit, allowing uniform neck tension, but not deforming the bullet. I use the "M" die for nearly all my rifle loads with alloy bullets, but have found that most current production hand gun dies come with a properly sized expanding button. My experience is with RCBS and Lee dies predominantly, but two sets of Hornady's in 9 mm and .30 Luger and one set of Lyman's in .41 Magnum were also good in that respect.

Rod
__________________
Our Flag does not fly because the wind blows against it, it is moved instead, by the dying breath of our patriots in uniform. Our Freedom is not free, it's been paid for many times over.
USAF Forward Air Controller, 5th Spl Forces,
An Loc, lll Corps, RVN, 69-70, Vietnam Vet '69-'73

Last edited by rodfac; January 20, 2013 at 10:01 AM.
rodfac is offline  
Old January 21, 2013, 06:01 PM   #12
hounddawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 760
for what it is worth I went up and shot about 100 rounds of the non crimped stuff today, group sizes shrank dramatically. Problem is I have about 1K of the stuff loaded crimped, guess that will be the box the wife and son in law get to shoot
__________________
Government is like a baby. An alimentary canal with a big appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other. - Ronald Reagan
hounddawg is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.08341 seconds with 7 queries