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Old January 16, 2013, 06:02 PM   #26
jake99
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They're not all ugly.. Mine's a 1953 Polish M44. Eighteen cents a round.

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Old January 16, 2013, 06:08 PM   #27
SIGSHR
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IMHO supplies of other surplus rifles-Lee Enfields, Mausers, US, have been pretty well exhausted. While somewhat crude by our standards the Mosin-Nagant was as widely issued as the Lee-Enfields and Mausers, had a service life starting with its introduction in 1891 and going into the 1960s-and is a real piece of military history.
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Old January 16, 2013, 06:16 PM   #28
Willie Sutton
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^^^ so is a Carcano....


Which is, according to the Warren Commission, the fastest firing and most accurate bolt action rifle ever made. To the rest of us it's the worst POS that has ever been made, perhaps only rivaled by the Lebel (another rifle with real history)...


What's the point?



Nearly 20 years ago I bought a brand new unfired Nagant Sniper (for about $1800 then), ex-Hungarian army, with correct scope, etc., to add to my sniper rifle collection of original sniper rifles (along with things like original Swedish 96 snipers, Springfield sniper, M1C and M1D snipers, Lungmann sniper, Kar-98K sniper, FN-49 sniper, Enfield #4 sniper, etc., etc., etc.

With over 20 military issue sniper rifles in my collection, the Nagant is the one I would take out of the chest last in case I needed a rifle to actually shoot anything with. It's probably the nicest Nagant you have ever seen. It is bottom of the barrel when compared to it's contemporaries.


I'd take the Enfield #4 sniper first, if anyone cares.


Just sayin'...


Willie


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Last edited by Willie Sutton; January 16, 2013 at 06:24 PM.
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Old January 16, 2013, 07:12 PM   #29
deerslayer303
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Are we really comparing a uncommon shooter shooting an uncommon Mosin to common shooters firing away with left over, used up, non cared for rifles designed and built fast without the least attention to detail? Wow. Buy a Mosin and you too could be the worlds next greatest sniper.
See you misunderstand. Zaytsev WAS a COMMON shooter shooting a COMMON rifle when his ability was DISCOVERED!! Read up on him before you go blabbering about. And ALL sniper rifles no matter WHAT type, make, etc. roll off the line WITH THE REST OF THE RIFLES! Its only after being test fired that the snipers are picked out. What do you think? Snipers were specially made in some special sniper factory!!
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Old January 16, 2013, 07:22 PM   #30
Willie Sutton
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^^^^

<yawn>

You really ought to get a bit of education on the Soviet/Russian armament design, procurement, and manufacturing system.

Take that suggestion from someone who has as his full time profession the technical analysis and exploitation of Russian and former Soviet defense material on behalf of the US Department of Defense.


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Old January 16, 2013, 07:34 PM   #31
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So, you're saying that there WAS a special "sniper" factory that I have not read about? I have only read the articles stating what I posted above.
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Old January 16, 2013, 07:52 PM   #32
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I can remember when Mauser K98Ks were going for less than $150 and Mosins were $75 or so, at that point if you wanted a surplus rifle you bought the Mauser. Now Mausers are going for quite a bit more but the Mosins are still reasonably price so for a first surplus rifle I think it's just about perfect. I like my Mosin, it shoots pretty well and isn't a bad looking rifle (at least it's not made with plastic). My next surplus rifle will be a Garand and then maybe a Mauser but I started with a Mosin because they are cheap and readily available.

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Old January 16, 2013, 08:00 PM   #33
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You made a pretty broad statement that was not attributable to any one country.

Many (most) sniper rifles were arsenal manufactured specifically as a scoped rifle ab-initio when assembled.

That was true in Russia, and it was true elsewhere as well.

Contemplate M1-D, Springfield, Mauser, etc. The scope mounts are not something that are attached after the fact. They are integral components of the rifle system and need to be assembled when the weapon is either manufactured or arsenal remanufactured. There's no "cherry picking and then modifying after the fact" as a rule. You build them to spec, and they they meet spec.

Nagant Snipers, were manufactured at the arsenal (or remanufactured at an arsenal) with scope mount holes drilled and scope mounts attached, and they were test fired after the fact to ensure that they met specifications.


My own example, BTW, is a Hungarian M/52, propably the finest Nagant version made. I still rate it a "So what" when compared to other similar hardware. Cheek weld? You must be kidding.



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Old January 16, 2013, 08:21 PM   #34
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I'm not so concerned with .0125 MOA @ 300 yards. I just want a piece of history that I can shoot. My M1 Carbine hits about 2 feet high and right at 200 yards. I don't care. My great uncle carried it in WW2. I wouldn't trade it for any modern rifle, even if it could shoot the wings off a fly at that distance. Unless a stampede of terrorists decide to attack my shooting range, i don't plan on using it in a wartime scenario.
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Old January 16, 2013, 08:40 PM   #35
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I agree with you Double Duece, good point.

Willie,
I'll have to check my source, but I've read the opposite. That the snipers came off the same line as the other 91/30 and they hand picked the best shooters then outfitted them. But that was way before my time and I can only cite the literature. But as they say history is sworn true by those who write the books.
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Old January 16, 2013, 08:44 PM   #36
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weather you like it or not willie there is no reason to put down someone elses choice in rifles. maybe its the only high powered rifle they can afford, maybe they have a love of russian hardware, or maybe like me i just love the history in these old weapons and i can take it out shoot it and not break the bank and if i want i can take it deer hunting or actually any animal in the states if i am so inclined
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Old January 16, 2013, 08:54 PM   #37
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Quote:
Many (most) sniper rifles were arsenal manufactured specifically as a scoped rifle ab-initio when assembled.

That was true in Russia, and it was true elsewhere as well.
I could swear I'd read an article where the Russians identified at least some of their snipers by testing for accuracy (meaning they were not expressly manufactured for that purpose)- and then marked the barrel accordingly...

I'm going to have to try to back up that memory.
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Old January 16, 2013, 09:05 PM   #38
Willie Sutton
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^^^ I would need to see that from a primary source to have it be credible.

The massive manufacturing effort and the numbers involved in WW-II production weigh against such a method, when taken in the context of our knowlage of other Soviet defense material manufacture. Massive amounts of "pretty good" at the expense of any quantities of "excellent" is the doctrinal rule for Soviet defense material. "Perfection is the enemy of good enough" to quote Admiral Gorshkov.

Take this for what it's worth: Quality control on these was pretty darned good. The basic issue rifle was/is capable of fairly precise shooting. Good basic quality control means that you don't really need to specially select particular examples for modification. And remember that the distances for precision rifle fire designers with this generation of rifle was not more than 500 meters, this being well within the capability of a good service rifle accuracy value. Optics complemented the existing platorm. The Russians also early learned the value of squad level opticallyu equipped riflemen, who were not snipers per-se. Witness the integral optics mounts on the basic SVT-40, etc. These were not precision rifles, just rifles with a scope added when convenient.


I have no bias against people who like these things at all, I just view them in a broader context of desirability than them being available by the barrel. They are a good rifle. They are not a grear rifle. Ergonomics... well....


Willie


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Last edited by Willie Sutton; January 16, 2013 at 09:11 PM.
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Old January 16, 2013, 09:25 PM   #39
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I don't think, its the greatest thing in the world, but it irritates me when gun snobs look down there nose at something just because it didn't cost half a months pay, or maybe a months pay to some. I have dirt cheap guns, and I have stupid expensive ones. I like them all. and the mosin is a pretty rifle to me (laminated stocked ones that is). Heck I even like the High point line! And have showed up a few glocksters with that 150 dollar brick! I'm a "firearms" collector. I like things that go BOOM, no matter what they cost. And a mosin will hold its own in my opinion with just a tad bit of work. I have no idea what a Mosin will do with modern ammo, but I do know my 1934 Tula will kill the heck out of some Melons, milk jugs full of water, Spray paint cans, etc with ole silver tip mil surp and do it with lots of bang and great fun!!
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Old January 16, 2013, 10:09 PM   #40
Willie Sutton
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^^ Know what? You're dead right.

Fun is fun no matter how it's found. Find it and enjoy it. There's a niche for every man, and if it's collecting Mosins, you're a brother in arms in our struggle against those who would disarm us.


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Old January 16, 2013, 10:16 PM   #41
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They are probably still one of the cheapest not-so-surplus rifles that have stood the test of time, while still being fun, customizable, and reliable.

With AK's, SKS, and other rifles going up in price, Mosin's are one of the only cheaper alternatives with ammo that is still relatively cheap to shoot, and a blast (pun intended) too.
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Old January 16, 2013, 11:07 PM   #42
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with that i have to agree....im a just a guy that likes guns...rare, common, pricey, cheap, and just plain unual and ugly. really dont care what it is if i dont have one and i see one i want it....if i can afford it i buy it. if someone from my childhood had one or family had one i will find it and buy it. getting older (not old yet mind you) only 44 but getting older and have a 6 yr old boy and want him to see shoot and enjoy the firearms of my youth and for myself i enjoy the smile on his face when he shoots the 22s and 410 which is what he shoots....but to see that wow look on his face when the big guns go off is priceless and hear him talk about how when he gets big he is gonna shoot them guns......so call my laminate mosin ugly but to me its the best gun in the world when that fireball comes out the end of the barrel and the boy gets the biggest grin on his face and says im gonna shoot that when i get big like you.

had to put this in....yes i count my shots and make sure i end on a even number....the pain in my shoulder is well worth it for the smiles on his face and the memories i will have later in life
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Old January 17, 2013, 02:46 AM   #43
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My interest was sudden about 10yrs ago when I bought a Hungarian M-44 that was so accurate I could literally call my shot. Not to mention its a beautiful example of a Mosin Nagant. I have dreamed of how awesome it would be with a scope but not gone do it. Since then I have added a......

M91/59 Carbine with a laminated stock. This little puppy is very light and shoots 2-3 moa depending on the ammo.

1929 91/30 Hex reciever that had a very ugly colored stock when I bought it for $70 so I refinished it and now its purdy.

Mosin's may not be the best bolt guns from the WWII era but with some trigger time you can do anything with it you can do with any other surplus 50-80yr old bolt gun.

I love Mosin's.
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Old January 17, 2013, 09:31 AM   #44
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Cheap.
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Old January 17, 2013, 04:23 PM   #45
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Some gun magazine {I forgot the name} did a test of WW2 sniper rifles, with WW2 dated ammo; a few years back. They could not evaluate the Enfield T sniper, because they could not find any dated WW2 ammo for it. The only one that could make consistent human torso gong hits at 900 yards, was the M91-30, with the PU 3.5X scope.
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Old January 17, 2013, 05:29 PM   #46
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interesting, I was doing that with my 1903A4 and 47 stamped ammo, pretty much the exact same ammo that was used wartime.
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Old January 17, 2013, 08:52 PM   #47
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So, with the next gun show coming up next weekend, Im expecing to see those signature green crates with about 10-15 rifles laying inside, plus a guy with a 25lb box of ammo for $30.

that being said, what is the average price for a mosin? I might consider buying one just to have one. i mean.. why not? if the gun and the ammo is as cheap as everyone says
plus, being a collector, and already having 2 garands, a mauser, and a 7.7 jap rifle, it would fit right in.
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Old January 17, 2013, 09:07 PM   #48
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$150 is about going rate but nobody ever has good deals at gun shows anymore so it's a little hard to tell. my last gun show didn't have a single mosin for less than $200 and none of them came with any of the goodies.
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Old January 18, 2013, 09:54 AM   #49
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Wow. Buy a Mosin and you too could be the worlds next greatest sniper.
Well, you'd stand a better chance than the guy with no rifle.
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Old January 18, 2013, 10:08 AM   #50
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Cheap.
"Cheap" implies "low worth".

These guns are inexpensive.

They are worth more than the $150-$200 asking prices, in that they are a greater value than most any other $200 rifle. If you store a 91/30 in a cool, dry place for a hundred years, it'll be worth something when you take it out. The same can almost certainly not be said of the cash - put $200 in a cool dry place and it won't buy a box of ammo in 100 years.

They are generally capable of better accuracy than the people shooting them.

"It's a rare marksman that can shoot up to his rifle."
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