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Old January 16, 2013, 05:25 PM   #26
Glock19Fan
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Quote:
Many comparisons between .22 & .25 use "similar" length barrels, but a 2" .25 and a 3" .22 are not really similar. The 3" bbl is 1/3 longer than the 2". The shorter the barrel, the more difference even a little length makes in velocity.
The difference in a 16" barrel and an 18" barrel may not be much, but when you get down to 2 inches, even 1/4 inch makes quite a bit of difference
In this test the advantage was to the underdog, .25ACP. The difference in barrel length was only 1/4 inch, which IMO is close enough for this test.

Quote:
Bigger hole in wood doesn't automatically mean bigger hole in flesh, organs and muscle. And it definitely doesn't mean a better hole
But when you consider these projectiles are moving at almost the exact same velocity, I believe the larger of the two will have the advantage. Either way, I do believe it will make a larger hole through bone.

And thanks Andy!
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Old January 16, 2013, 08:32 PM   #27
Bill DeShivs
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I wasn't disparaging your comparison. It's one of the better ones.
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Old January 16, 2013, 08:45 PM   #28
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I just wasnt sure if you were refering to my test or another when mentioning the 3" .22LR?
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Old January 16, 2013, 10:53 PM   #29
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Did the .25 acp really out perform the .22lr.?..
Seems like penetration levels from both were very similar.
Also seems like the .22lr projectiles look more deformed to the extent that the rounds probably tumbled a bit.

This deformation and tumbling suggests to me that the .22lr would've done more tissue damage, where as the .25 acp had almost zip deformation.

Just my opinion.


I think the soft lead of the .22lr promotes more chances of fragmentation with bone/ and tumbling and deformation in tissue.

Last edited by m_liebst; January 16, 2013 at 11:27 PM.
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Old January 17, 2013, 12:49 AM   #30
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Judging by the holes in the water jugs, both rounds appeared to tumble. While the .22LR bullets did deform, it wasnt enough to make a significant difference. The more rounded shape of the .25ACP certainly punched a larger initial hole in the wood and I would assume that the larger bullet would also cuase more damage throughout the penetration under the (safe) assumption that both rounds were traveling at approx the same velocity during penetration of the water jugs.

But the point of the test was to measure penetration, not damage. However, it seems that the .25ACP outperformed the .22LR in every way.
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Old January 17, 2013, 02:15 AM   #31
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often carry a Bereta Model 21 in .22LR it functions perfectlly with WW solids and clocks in at 900 fps with a 40 gr slug.
If I did the math right that's only 58.8 fp of energy but with 7 rounds a nice face spray or chest spray should deter any oppoonent long enough for me to get away safe...
Yea I have a .38 Chief to carry but sometimes it's even too large to be discreetlly carried. Granted it's probablly the premier pocket gun!
To me the best gun is one that you have with you so the little Model 21 someties fits ythis catagory and being a .22 pratice ammo is cheap!
JMHO
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Old January 17, 2013, 10:32 AM   #32
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Doesn't seem too be much difference in penetration level. Nothing anyway that really puts one far ahead of the other.

They both still have similar penetration levels, and in my opinion- the soft lead .22lr bullets have more chances of tumbling/ deformation and fragmentation when shot in the human body.

To me thats more lethal than the thick copper jacket of the .25 acp that might make a slightly bigger hole- but more likely a straight hole/ and certainly won't deform or fragment.

There are many bones in the body that will stop/ deflect both .25acp and .22lr bullets at the 60 foot pound levels....However, if so- the .22lr will likely fragment or shatter upon impact with a dense bone, sending pieces in other directions. Wood isn't an accurate comparison to dense bone.

Think about how much more critical it would be for a surgeon to have to find where the bullet actually is in relation to angle of impact/ or if there are several pieces of the main projectile that have broken off and gone in other directions.

I've shot the .25acp- ...you literally have to be shooting at a boulder or steel plate to cause any deformation. This being solid point.

Last edited by m_liebst; January 17, 2013 at 09:25 PM.
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Old January 18, 2013, 05:20 AM   #33
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I would choose the .25 just for the extra reliability. I've owned a lot of .22 BUGs and they weren't anywhere near as reliable as my Beretta 950 Jetfire, the one I finally kept.
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Old January 18, 2013, 06:15 AM   #34
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great test, and very surprising results. I was always under the impression that the major advantage .22LR had over .25acp (aside from availability/price)was the penetration. But you're seeing .25acp get marginally better penetration than the .22 even out of a shorter barrel.
I'm not sure what this information will do for me personally as I already have my tiny gun niche filled by a .380, but cool none the less.
There's definitely some distortion in pic#2 - best not let your lady friends know you have a camera that makes things look skinny or you'll never see it again.

As far as micro .22's that feed well, I had a Beretta 950 that never had an issue. It was .22short rather than .22lr, but the cartridges were definitely rimed. And my buddy has a Beretta tomcat that he feels is very reliable - I don't know that it's never misfired, but he felt good enough about it to give it to his wife.
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Old January 18, 2013, 06:55 AM   #35
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Quote:
often carry a Bereta Model 21 in .22LR it functions perfectlly with WW solids and clocks in at 900 fps with a 40 gr slug.
If I did the math right that's only 58.8 fp of energy but with 7 rounds a nice face spray or chest spray should deter any oppoonent long enough for me to get away safe...
I used the Energy program over at Handloads.com. That 40 grains at 900 fps produces 71 ft.lbs ME. I am surprised at that velocity.
I had a model 21 and gave it away.....could not get it to shoot reliably and I tried hard.
Good for you.
Quote:
As far as micro .22's that feed well, I had a Beretta 950 that never had an issue. It was .22short rather than .22lr, but the cartridges were definitely rimed. And my buddy has a Beretta tomcat that he feels is very reliable - I don't know that it's never misfired, but he felt good enough about it to give it to his wife.
The Tomcat is a .32acp. The cartridge is "semi-rimmed".
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Last edited by darkgael; January 18, 2013 at 07:02 AM.
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Old January 18, 2013, 01:46 PM   #36
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oops... bobcat, not tomcat
At least I got the cat part right.
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Old January 18, 2013, 02:34 PM   #37
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I love these types of tests as well as the so-called "scientific" ones. And the findings are about what I expected. I agree with the OP in that if given the choice I would go with Sir JMB's little gem . That said, I have a Beretta 21A in .22lr because I can afford to shoot it (.25acp ammo is ridiculously expensive :rolleyes). I carry the 21A solely as BUG (9mm primary) but I have nice little mouse-gun collection including a .25acp which a family member currently possesses (lend them at your own peril ).

Not to knock the .25acp but it seems as the the .22lr is the choice of "hits" like those conducted at times by Mossad.
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Old June 2, 2014, 08:37 PM   #38
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Math Police

Quote:
Many comparisons between .22 & .25 use "similar" length barrels, but a 2" .25 and a 3" .22 are not really similar. The 3" bbl is 1/3 longer than the 2". The shorter the barrel, the more difference even a little length makes in velocity.
The difference in a 16" barrel and an 18" barrel may not be much, but when you get down to 2 inches, even 1/4 inch makes quite a bit of difference
I know this is an old thread but I'd like to correct a math error that went unchallenged. A 3" barrel is 1/2 (50%) longer than a 2" barrel, not 33% as stated. Confusing as it is - the 2" barrel is 1/3 shorter than the 3" barrel.

Wild
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Old June 3, 2014, 07:59 PM   #39
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Great little test. I would be curious to see how a .25 hollow point would compare in the test. However, I do not think I have ever seen hollow points in .25.....perhaps winchester silver tips or haydara shock??
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Old June 3, 2014, 08:42 PM   #40
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Years ago I tried my .22WMR magnum 5 1/2" barrel revolver with a hollow point on a 2X4 that looked softer than the one in this thread and it did not penetrate. I think the extra expansion of the hollow point ate up the extra energy. I wish I had cut through the "wound" channel.
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Old June 3, 2014, 09:43 PM   #41
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Wildkata---that is what I was wondering. However, the trade off may be less penetration but more trama?
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Old June 3, 2014, 10:48 PM   #42
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The hydraulic shock from that round even with the deficit from revolver use is amazing on jackrabbits. I have seen skin knocked off several inches from the wound channel.
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Old June 4, 2014, 05:45 AM   #43
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gold dots are available for 25 ACP
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Old June 4, 2014, 06:16 AM   #44
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if I had to carry a Beretta model 21 in either caliber it would be the .25acp, in any gun actually if they were the same except caliber, though id prefer an extractor.
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Old June 4, 2014, 06:39 AM   #45
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In the first iteration of this thread someone mentioned this:

"the reliability of a centerfire primer is a lot better than a rimfire round also"

I've not found that to be true.

I've had more factory primer failures with centerfire ammunition than I have with rimfire ammunition over the years, and I've shot metric buttload of both.

The worst was I had a box of Remington revolver ammunition in which 7 cartridges refused to fire.

The only completely dead .22s I've ever had were either really cheap foreign made or old ammo whose storage was questionable.

I have absolutely no problems carrying a .22 pocket pistol.
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Old June 4, 2014, 07:07 AM   #46
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MIKE... my experience has been completely opposite, & I've shot the same "butt load" of both... that said, I'd still likely carry a 22, albeit in revolver format...

along the same lines of reliability is everyone talking "apples to apples" ???

my canter fire handgun ammo is either handloads ( which I don't recall ever having a bad primer ) or quality "carry" ammo... & the bulk of my 22 failures were with bulk pack ammo... I can't say all, because of the shear numbers fired, but at least the bulk of my misfires were from bulk pack ammo

so... if you are carrying a 22, are you shooting premium target ammo, or a handful out of a bulk pack ???
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Old June 4, 2014, 09:41 AM   #47
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"my canter fire handgun"

It's always at something faster than trot?

Most of my bulk pack ammo has been Federal, and I've always been VERY pleased with Federal ammo.

My little Taurus PT-22 only really likes Winchester Wildcat, or it gives light strikes, especially with CCI Mini Mag.

But that's not a dead primer, that's hard brass, and I have no similar problems with my S&W Model 18.


The only totally dead primers I can remember having with American-made ammo was with Remington Thunderbolt bulkpack.

But, there were myriad other problems with that crap, such as bad leading and apparently VERY loose loading standards...

In a cylinder or magainze, they would sound...

Crack

Blip

Bloop

Crack

KABLAM!

Poof

Bloop

It was obvious that Remington had thrown all pretenses of quality control to the wind on that crap.
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Old June 4, 2014, 10:00 AM   #48
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well so much for correcting my spelling

yup... Thunderbolt never enters a gun of mine again...

back in the 80's - 90's, I had a couple hand made dueling trees, set up for 22's, my buddies would come over, & it was not uncommon to go through a couple bricks of 22 each, through our various Ruger semi auto handguns, dueling each other all day, Saturday, & into Sunday...

my how things change... today that could be $120.00 of ammo each... back then I think I was paying $6.00 for 500 rounds of Federal... which was my standard... one Friday, the local shop was out of Federal, & I bought 2 bricks of Thunderbolt... OMG... the accuracy was terrible & 1/2 way through Sunday, I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn maybe after 750 rounds...

so I quit early,. & started cleaning my pre slab side Government Target model, only to stick a brush in the bore... I had to take it to my local gun smith buddy, who got it out, along with 2-3 bullets worth of lead accumulation from the 6" barrel

after that, I'd rather not shoot, then put Thunderbolts through any of my guns again
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Old June 4, 2014, 10:23 AM   #49
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BTW... starting prep work on my newest custom... something I've always wanted... a 6" revolver with target sights, chambered in 25 ACP... I have 8" of .251" barrel liner ready, waiting until I can afford the donor gun, which will be a target single action 38 special... thinking we can stuff 8 of the 25 ACP chambers in the cylinder... should make an interesting squirrel gun...

the reason the 25 ACP gold dots interested me, were for small game... I think for self defense out of one of my 25 ACP semi autos, the FMJ would be more lethal, as I expect the penetration would be very minimal with a Gold Dot in the 25 ACP...

BTW#2... I just got 500 of the Speer short barrel Gold Dot 22 mags in though, & expect at over 1000 fps out of snubbie length barrels, that aught to be a good combo
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Old June 4, 2014, 10:39 AM   #50
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Mike say it aint so! I have 2,000 rounds of that "crap" might be why I was able to get it so cheap.
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