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Old April 18, 2014, 08:40 AM   #1
simonrichter
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Bug-out bag gun

I'm not awaiting any zombie apocalypse to be imminent, alas something like a longer blackout, energy shortage or public unrest due to currency turbulences or natural disasters has become more likely in the recent years. Thus, I started to build up a little more on basic supplies, bottled water and the like.

Since I'm doing a lot of outdoor activities anyway I also have kind of a bug-out bag in case I have to move to my place in the mountains once things are getting nasty in the city. Yet, the usual outdoor stuff + water, food and, in the cold season, additional clothing quite add up weight-wise.

A handgun would definitely be a nice addition to the survival pack and a good reassurance should push come to shove. As a compromise between the whole backpack getting to heavy, or going without either a handgun or the recommended amount of water, I thought about adding a small .22 mouse gun. I know many here despise .22 for any other purpose than plinking, but both ammo and gun carry less weight than a full size or even a major caliber compact, and it's still better than a stick. And if the situation should happen to persist, it's far more likely to find replacement ammo...

Looking forward to your thoughts!
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Old April 18, 2014, 09:35 AM   #2
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I would do some serious comparison between the actual weight of various guns and see if I could find a 9mm that might work. I believe the additional weight would be easily justified when you consider the significant increase in power between the two calibers.

Quote:
And if the situation should happen to persist, it's far more likely to find replacement ammo...
Also, is .22 really more readily available than 9mm in Austria? Although availability is improving .22 still seems to be more difficult to find than 9mm here in the US.
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Old April 18, 2014, 09:52 AM   #3
Madcap_Magician
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I would say a takedown .22 rifle would be a better thing to have in that bag. Or if it's big enough a regular .22 rifle would be fine, too. Can you get the takedown Ruger 10/22? That would be ideal.
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Old April 18, 2014, 09:55 AM   #4
simonrichter
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Quote:
Also, is .22 really more readily available than 9mm in Austria?
definitely. That is due to the fact that the purchase of .22lr is not restricted, while for centerfire handgun rounds it is.

.22lr bolt actions tend to be quite the standard for recreational shooting and the average "whatsoever purpose farm gun", so you'll find a lot of .22lr in private possession as well as in the LGS.

9mm, .380, .40 or the like, on the other hand, are only available to those who have a handgun purchasing licence, and thus less likely to be found outside a LGS.
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Old April 18, 2014, 09:55 AM   #5
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There is a significant increase in power from .22 to 9mm. Nonetheless, a .22 is handy for all sorts of game, and the ammo is light. Though I haven't gotten around to buying one, I've always thought one of these would be nice to toss in the truck for just such an emergency.
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Old April 18, 2014, 10:14 AM   #6
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My vote would be for a 22 mag revolver. A little more umph than a 22lr yet still light enough to carry a fair amount of ammo.

Or, if you're willing to double the price, you could get the Kel Tec PMR30.
That's the route I'd go if you have the budget for it.
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Old April 18, 2014, 10:18 AM   #7
simonrichter
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Quote:
a takedown .22 rifle
our government is obviously highly concerned about poachers, so takedowns are completely banned. The Henry would have been my choice, otherwise (though it might as well be still too much for a situation where you really have to keep an eye on the scale...

The PMR30 would theoretically be legal, actually it is not available, though.
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Old April 18, 2014, 10:30 AM   #8
2damnold4this
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If your main goal is to defend yourself against people, then the 9mm would be be my choice. If you are looking for something that may be more general purpose, you might be looking for a "kit gun." There are some good threads on kit guns if you use the search function.
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Old April 18, 2014, 11:07 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simonrichter
our government is obviously highly concerned about poachers, so takedowns are completely banned.
Just curious... what precisely is considered a "takedown"?

I have a couple of old Winchester .22 bolt rifles that have an easily manipulated thumbscrew that allows the stock to be removed in seconds, so the rifle can easily be packed in a large suitcase in two large pieces; however, the barrel and receiver are not readily separated from one another, so these rifles are not true takedowns in that sense. This type of design is fairly common for inexpensive American .22's made before the mid 20th century, to facilitate rail travel to the hunting camp, since most people of modest means did not have cars back then.

Perhaps this type of rifle would work within the regulations.
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Old April 18, 2014, 11:16 AM   #10
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I kind of depends on how you are able to get to your mountain retreat.
If by vehicle, then what you can take gets more generous.
If by foot or bicycle, then weight is definitely a consideration.
Nothing at all wrong with a .22 rifle, whatever type you are allowed.
.22s are far more effective than most folks think.
Fairly quiet, too, as compared to larger guns.
Could be very important.
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Old April 18, 2014, 11:34 AM   #11
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Ive been thinking about one of the take down 10/22's for this very purpose

It would be IN ADDITION to my EDC pistol. More along the lines of a survival rifle then a defensive piece. Add a suppressor and viola...

Should the need arise to use it against 2 legged critters... A cpl (or 3-4) 22lr into a human chest or 1 between the running lights from a supressed 22 would be effective enough in this environment
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Old April 18, 2014, 01:43 PM   #12
Bill DeShivs
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Simonrichter-
The Beretta 21 is small and lightweight. I'm not sure what other guns in .22LR are available to you in Austria. The Walther P22 is pretty lightweight, but is made of zinc alloy. Ruger makes the "Standard" model, and I believe they make a lightweight model.
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Old April 18, 2014, 02:56 PM   #13
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Where are you going to go? Everyone else will go to the mountains too.
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Old April 18, 2014, 05:12 PM   #14
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If you want a small, accurate, dependable little .22 pistol, check out the Ruger SR22. I love the heck out of mine, it just amazes me how nice and reliable this thing is. I have no problem hitting pop cans out to 30 yds. When I first got it I had a couple of glitches feeding but after a couple hundred rounds not a single ftf and thats using several different types of ammo and a couple thousand rounds without even a cleaning.
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Old April 18, 2014, 06:15 PM   #15
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You didn't outright say whether you looked at the handgun in your bug out bag as primarily a food gathering tool or a self-defense weapon. If you practice with it before hand any good 22 with a medium length barrel, be it a revolver or a semi-auto will in a short time in wilderness country garner more meat than the weight of the gun and a few boxes of cartridges, but if your primary purpose is food gathering in the mountains a little breakdown 22 rifle will be much better. With the rifle you can shoot small game at close range with shorts, and for practical purposes you'll be using a silenced gun, which could be important. Plus with the breakdown feature you can make the gun disappear in your pack, if you need to go into town for any reason. I take it open display of arms in public places in Europe may not be the norm.

If the true reason you want the gun is defense against humans, it's a tossup between the handgun and the breakdown rifle. You can conceal a small breakdown rifle quite adequately for short periods of time under a winter coat, and should you run into trouble in the woods it would be a much better choice than the handgun. If you're forced to be around people who haven't done anything overtly aggressive yet you just don't trust them nothing beats a concealable handgun.

If my primary reason for a gun was self-defense, my first choice would not be a 22, but both weight of the ammunition and availability of ammunition might sway me, especially if I had to carry it in a pack. I'd feel far from naked with any good 22.

If indeed you're talking about wilderness survival, I can tell you from experience that after a day of hard work, lasting very long on a squirrel and a biscuit is a hard way to go. You're slowly starving. If the country offers it, concentrate on larger game, and consider the small stuff as incidentals, pleasant to have on occasion but nothing too related to your long term survival.
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Old April 18, 2014, 07:19 PM   #16
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Don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but a Henry AR-7 might fit your needs. It's a .22lr (I can't remember if it feeds other .22 cal. rounds) rifle that can be taken apart and everything fits inside the stock. It weighs about 2 lbs (just under a kilo), about 20 inches (approx. 51 centimeters) long when taken down, comes with two mags, is semi-auto, and is fairly accurate to at least 50 yds (I haven't actually tried shooting farther with it yet). I took mine out on a fishing/rabbit hunting trip last year and it really shot better than I expected.

Oh, and they go for about $270 I think.

I just remembered. I believe TC has a take down rifle that's a .22 and a .410 shotgun. It's a nicer gun than the henry, but I believe it's heavier, doesn't get as small, more expensive, and is a single shot. But having that .410 round might make it worth it.
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Old April 18, 2014, 07:47 PM   #17
Bill DeShivs
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Why don't you guys READ the posts before you reply??
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Old April 18, 2014, 07:52 PM   #18
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I used to carry a Beretta 21 in the aircraft for a light survival gun. They are surprisingly accurate and easy to shoot, but safe and pocketable. I would also look at a Bersa .22 for something a hair bigger and super high quality. Or a little S&W revolver in .22. There's a lot of new junk out there.

If it wasn't going to be a smallish gun, just get a Ruger 22/45, S&W 422 or Buckmark in some configuration that makes sense. They literally shoot like rifles, which will make a lot of sense when squirrels start looking tasty.

For a centerfire, I think a .38/.357 revolver makes a certain amount of sense as a gun that can be hunted with due to the stellar accuracy and trigger pull. Good enough for defense, but light loads are appropriate for small game and magnums will work on deer.

Really, anything will work, and it wouldn't be dumb to buy a Hi-Point 9mm or Jennings .22 if it was going to be shot very little and sit in a bag all the time.
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Old April 18, 2014, 08:57 PM   #19
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Actually, Bill D., what I did was skim the thread/posts, so I thought it was possible that I could've missed a detail or two. However, after READING this thread, I've discovered that in fact, no one mentioned either of my suggestions before me.

As to your post, I apologize if I somehow offended you, as that was definitely not my intention.

Though it occurs to me that it's just not a big deal whether I read the thing in its entirety or not. Or is there some unwritten rule that I missed? If that's the case, please educate me.

Peace.
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Old April 18, 2014, 09:11 PM   #20
Bill DeShivs
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The OP said that 9mm was out for legal reasons.
The OP said that takedowns were out for legal reasons.
Guess you didn't catch that, huh? Several others didn't either.

"Quote:
a takedown .22 rifle
our government is obviously highly concerned about poachers, so takedowns are completely banned. The Henry would have been my choice, otherwise (though it might as well be still too much for a situation where you really have to keep an eye on the scale...

The PMR30 would theoretically be legal, actually it is not available, though."
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Old April 18, 2014, 09:20 PM   #21
Rangerrich99
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Ah, well, and there you go. Exactly why I said what I said in the first place.

Peace.
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Old April 18, 2014, 09:22 PM   #22
steelbird
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Beretta Neos?

To the OP- you did say a take down is a no-go. Would this include the Neos with the carbine kit option?
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Old April 19, 2014, 07:00 AM   #23
Hal
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Do they have those itty bitty kid rifles like the Chipmunk and the Cricket over there?
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Old April 19, 2014, 09:14 AM   #24
carguychris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hal
Do they have those itty bitty kid rifles like the Chipmunk and the Cricket over there?
That's basically where I was going with my earlier question about old Winchester .22's. The Winchester Model 67 single-shot was sold as a "Boy's Rifle" with a shorter barrel and stock, and with the barrel removed, it's nearly as small as a purpose-built takedown. The Chipmunk and the Cricket are basically knockoffs of the Winchester M67 Boy's Rifle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RX-79G
I used to carry a Beretta 21 in the aircraft for a light survival gun.
A Beretta 950 Minx is a similar possibility, although it's chambered in .22 Short rather than .22LR.
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Old April 19, 2014, 08:33 PM   #25
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I have to vote for something in line with the Savage Model 24/42, preferably the .22WMR/410 combo. Definitely not a ZA gun, but otherwise an excellent utility piece for a bugout kit.

Last edited by Sabrewolfe; April 19, 2014 at 08:40 PM.
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