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Old January 15, 2013, 04:41 AM   #1
Pond, James Pond
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Finally, I understand. Grip angle.

Before I start, allow me to make one thing clear: this is not, and should not become, yet another Glock-attack thread.
It is an account of my experience. Nothing more, nothing less. You can share yours in support or to the contrary, but please just stick to the facts being discussed. If you just want to say Glock is best, or Glock is junk, please refrain... Thanks.

I have a Gen 3, Glock 19. I like it. I like its simplicity, the fact it has gone bang every time, except for a handful of bad primers in my low-cost Barnaul ammo. I like the trigger break, I like the trigger reset and it is comfortable to hold.
More importantly, I shoot it well, IMHO. Not fast, but accurately.

Recently, I have been trying to focus more on speed; follow-up shots as my times are my biggest weakness in IPSC.

In doing this I noticed one reason that will make this a tricky area to improve. My natural point of aim with the Glock:

If I just bring the weapon up to bear on my target, letting my arms and hands guide the gun to where I "feel" it should be on target, and I find the following:
The gun is pointing at the target, the gun is steady, but the base of the front sight is aligned with the top of the rear sights, as opposed to the top of the front sight being aligned.

Naturally, means that my natural point of aim is somewhat high, meaning I have to consciously make adjustments, rather than relying on my point of aim to bring me back on target.

Clearly this will add half a second or so to each aiming process, and that soon adds up in an IPSC stage.
If there was not a palm swell on the rear grip, I'm sure it would be easier to align, but there you go. Such is life.

Any good techniques for working round this or adjusting my muscel memory to account for this raised sight position.
Perhaps there are, otherwise, raised rear sights or the like.
Or would working with that new sight picture do just as good a job?

I just don't want to build in bad habits/posture/form in case I do replace the Glock at some time in the future.

Please do not just say "sell it".
I am quite capable of exploring this option without having it suggested. Let's just stick to shooting and training techniques that you know of.
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Last edited by Pond, James Pond; January 15, 2013 at 05:10 AM.
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Old January 15, 2013, 05:57 AM   #2
dayman
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It's funny you should say that because I have sort of the opposite problem. With most guns I find that I naturally wind up aiming low - and need to consciously bring the muzzle up to line the sights up - so I've been seriously considering switching to a glock to remedy that.
I guess that's why they make them. It's just too bad they can't make grip angle as easily adjustable as grip size.
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Old January 15, 2013, 07:12 AM   #3
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The fix is simple: shoot it more often...and shoot a lot. Your grip will adjust.
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Old January 15, 2013, 07:13 AM   #4
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I too find the "innate" POI of a Glock slightly high, but the trade off is I find the "corrected" angle sort of locks in my grip. What I mean by that is followup shots seem to come faster and with more accuracy (double taps). Obviously other factors at play too (low bore axis, short trigger reset) but I do feel the grip angle "pre-loads" my wrist.
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Old January 15, 2013, 07:20 AM   #5
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I am somewhat in the same situation. I have always been a 1911 guy but just grabbed a Glock G30 and the grip angle thing is annoying. I'm old and not going to change so this grip anglewill be the one to change. I've done quite a bit of research and although there are clearly people out there who are obviously good at it (eg. ..Robar, Glockworks, Cold Bore Customs and others) reshaping and texturizing a Glock frame is not rocket science. A little practice and patience and it is one of those things you can do yourself or you can send it off and have it done.
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Old January 15, 2013, 08:13 AM   #6
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If you have a hard time switching between a Glock and 1911, I just wonder how any of you could possibly shoot a Ruger Mark II? Now, that's an extreme grip angle! I suppose on the other end of the spectrum is the old Colt Bisley. Either could make Glocks and 1911's feel like the same gun.
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Old January 15, 2013, 09:22 AM   #7
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If Glock is your primary pistol, adjust your point of AIM until it becomes natural. Otherwise, change the grip angle of the pistol.

I shoot revolvers and semi-autos including a MKII ruger.
I mainly shoot with 1911. So, most of my pistols have the same grip angle.
My Ruger MKII has wood finger groove grips to compensate for the grip angle.
My revolvers --- I just adjust my grip.

This grip angle thing is why I do not have a glock, yet.
I have shot several glocks and all shot very well but I can't bring myself to get one, yet.
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Old January 15, 2013, 10:06 AM   #8
1stmar
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James I agree with you. I thought the gen 4 had a slightly different grip angle or a removable blackstrap to compensate. Personally I like the sr9 over the glock for this reason. Glock is a great gun, just not suited for me and I am not changing my natural point of aim or grip.
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Old January 15, 2013, 12:08 PM   #9
bossman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skadoosh
The fix is simple: shoot it more often...and shoot a lot. Your grip will adjust.
For me the grip on the 1911 is perfect, but my EDC is a Glock 36 for it's size and weight. I shoot many types of guns and the grip angle is just a non-issue for me. If it's your carry gun and/or IPSC the more you shoot it the faster it becomes a non-issue.
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Old January 15, 2013, 12:25 PM   #10
chris in va
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I had a 21sf.

After owning a CZ for years, I had trouble point shooting the Glock. Bullet impact would be about 2' high at 10yards unless I purposely forced the front sight into alignment with the rear.

Currently looking at an M&P 45. Natural grip angle, narrower profile, and reportedly better trigger with the Apex kit.
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Old January 15, 2013, 01:29 PM   #11
TheNocturnus
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The reason that the grip angle is like that is because of the Austrians bone structure. Here in this radiograph image of an Austrian's wrist you can see the bone structure and alignment of the wrist.





Just kidding. I too had some adjustments to make when I fired my G19. It seemed my POA was about where yours was Pond, but eventually it became natural for me.
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Old January 15, 2013, 01:51 PM   #12
Pond, James Pond
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OK: great!!
Good to know I'm not alone, and good to know I don't need to resort to the minor orthopaedic adjustments in Nocturnus' x-ray!!

Practice seems to be the key.

I have found that if I dip my head a bit, then things line up, or if I tilt my wrist down by a coiuple of degrees, I get the same result: alignment.

It is just that, at present, making those adjustments feels wierd. just need to get acclimatised to it, I suppose!

There is hope!
Thanks all!
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Old January 15, 2013, 01:51 PM   #13
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Quote:
If I just bring the weapon up to bear on my target, letting my arms and hands guide the gun to where I "feel" it should be on target, and I find the following:
The gun is pointing at the target, the gun is steady, but the base of the front sight is aligned with the top of the rear sights, as opposed to the top of the front sight being aligned.
Don't fight it. Instead, keep moving your target back until your natural point of aim in the same as point of impact. Then you know where your wrist and your Glock are "zeroed".

Then challenge your buddies at the range to timed shooting at "XYZ" yards/meters and grin like the Cheshire Cat!

It is nice to be versatile and to be proficient in many different firearms; however, there is a reason that I prefer and shoot certain guns better than others. The physical characteristics of any particular gun certainly come into play.

You can force/train yourself to adopt a different grip, stance, etc... the question that I have for you is do you want to?

Or possibly find the right load for your "grip". Different loads with different POI. Or find a gun that points naturally for you... Or modify your current gun until it points naturally for you...
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Old January 15, 2013, 05:40 PM   #14
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I noted this effect with Glock before they added finger-grooves. Instead of trying to seat your fingers in the grooves, clamp down on the tops of them and 'grip down'.

You'll have to play around with this but I've found it works well enough that the sights on a Gen3 Glock will align for me on presentation. My hands were ground to fit 1911's and Colt Single Actions, so I feel your pain.
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Old January 15, 2013, 08:22 PM   #15
Dashunde
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I'm pretty much with Officers Match on this... I too find that Glocks dont really aim naturally, but that grip angle seems to maximize the wrists ability to stabilize recoil - for me Glocks push back into my arm rather than rotating my wrist.
Its as if the recoil axis is between my two big fingers rather than across the top of my index finger straight into my thumb.

I've also noticed that my G21 feels odd - almost unpleasant and awkward - when I'm messing around with it at home, but somehow it feels perfect when its fired. Go figure...
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Old January 15, 2013, 10:57 PM   #16
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It just takes practice, you'll get used to it. A guy can get used to hanging if you hang long enough.
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Old January 16, 2013, 01:03 AM   #17
Stringfellow
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This has been holding me back for years. Have any of you tried the GripForce adapters? I haven't felt a Glock with the adapter, but the pictures look promising for converting the grip much closer to that of a 1911.
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Old January 16, 2013, 01:17 AM   #18
chris in va
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I agree about Glocks and recoil, my 21sf had the least felt muzzle flip of any 45 I've tried.
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Old January 16, 2013, 10:15 AM   #19
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Oddly, the 45/10mm Glocks point almost perfectly for me. The grip is just enough bigger than the 9/40 frames, to make them work for me.
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Old January 16, 2013, 11:46 AM   #20
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I'm pretty fond of the SF frames in 20/21, and the RTF2 in 17/19.
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Old January 16, 2013, 12:09 PM   #21
10mm4ever
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The issue with the block isn't the grip angle, it's the shape. The size of the 'hump' and it's location forces the muzzle end up, so you have to adjust your wrist to compensate.

Last edited by 10mm4ever; January 16, 2013 at 12:14 PM.
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Old January 16, 2013, 10:52 PM   #22
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I agree. It's just like an arched mainspring housing on a 1911.

I too am curious about the Gripforce adapters.
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Old January 16, 2013, 11:47 PM   #23
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I have used the gripforce adaptor, and it really does help. My Glock 31 used to point high, but now it's perfect for me. And the gripforce is really "grippy" I guess. It feels like the RTF texture. It's definitely worth a try. I'm glad I got it.
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Old January 18, 2013, 09:51 AM   #24
Walt Sherrill
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Clearly this will add half a second or so to each aiming process, and that soon adds up in an IPSC stage.
I'll agree that the Glock grip angle is not "natural" for some folks, but you should always be using the sights -- and if such a minor adjustments adds a half-second to your sight alignment process, you really need to be working on your technique -- or find different sights.

A shooter is almost always going to have to make minor sight adjustments when shooting in the IPSC or other "combat" games, as the shooter can't always get his or her feet and torso into the optimal "natural" position before starting. In all of these combat games you will have to bend, stoop, kneel, look around a barricade, or shoot while moving, and in those cases, the "natural" position that all of us love to experience just doesn't present itself or play as big a role as it would on a single first shot, when you can prepare yourself ahead of time. When you are forced to twist and turn, and move, the sights are your guide.

I'm a big CZ fan, and I prefer shooting CZs and clones to other guns, but some of my best IDPA times came while shooting a Glock 34...

Last edited by Walt Sherrill; January 18, 2013 at 09:56 AM.
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Old January 18, 2013, 12:18 PM   #25
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I've found my G21 points very naturally for me, whereas my G30 isn't quite so good...

Of course, my all-time favorite is still my Sig in terms of natural alignment...she just doesn't get carried as much nowadays!
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