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Old January 13, 2013, 03:57 PM   #26
rickyrick
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JamesPond,

The UK gun ban and orher countries is being held up as a shining example of why we need to give up our rifles. More like being crammed down our throats actually.
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Old January 13, 2013, 04:00 PM   #27
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Hi do you explain the fact their are more murders in America were more are allowed to carry firearms than most other other countries. ? Compared with the most of Europe and the uk for example.
Ah, but concealed carry isn't allowed in many us states and cities, but the ones that do allow it have significantly lower violent crimes.
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Old January 13, 2013, 04:03 PM   #28
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Correlation does not always equal causation, which seems to escape some, but when the causation becomes glaringly obvious it should not be ignored.

When legal gun ownership and increased used of CCW became the norm rather than the exception in the US violent crime on the whole took a nose dive.
In those cities where private ownership and carry are prohibited or severely restricted violent crime has increased.

The experiment has been repeated often enough for a conclusion to be drawn.

PS
Quote:
England's population in 2011 was found to be 53 million.[264] It is one of the most densely populated countries in the world, with 383 people resident per square kilometre in mid-2003,[265] with a particular concentration in London and the south-east.[266] The 2011 census put Scotland's population at 5.3 million,[267] Wales at 3.06 million and Northern Ireland at 1.81 million.
If those figures are correct Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland together have fewer residents than New York City. England has fewer residents than California.

I had noticed some crime statistics for the UK mention only crimes in England and Wales, crimes in Ireland and Scotland being totally ignored or simply not reported.
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Old January 13, 2013, 04:03 PM   #29
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rickyrick - not by the UK members on this board it isn't, and the fact that the other side are making those arguments doesn't mean the pro-2A side should too, because they are equally weak, unconvincing and ill-informed.
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Old January 13, 2013, 04:08 PM   #30
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Rainbow - alternative explanations for this correlation have been offered, you have chosen to ignore them.

In the UK legal guns have always been a rural thing, gun crime is an urban thing. Done by different populations, moving in different worlds.

There may well be a causal link in the USA - but there is no real evidence for one in Britain, because we are talking about a different country with a different people. There is nothing to be gained by comparing the two.
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Old January 13, 2013, 04:09 PM   #31
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I'm not arguing any side actually, I don't have facts on crime in the UK or anywhere else. I'm just answering the question as to why some are trying to disprove the figures.

I understand why some would want to discuss this, as its a big reason some have given to disarm citizens
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Old January 13, 2013, 04:12 PM   #32
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rickyrick - I get that too, but it seems that every time this comes up, immediately after shouting at the anti's for their spurious links and unsupportable conclusions, people start doing the same thing themselves. Trying so hard to prove that the UK is really dangerous and over run with knife wielding thugs, and that this is because we have strict gun laws . . . when it this bears no resemblance to reality.
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Old January 13, 2013, 04:15 PM   #33
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Nope, I'm pointing out that lack of the right to carry a firearm for self defense most certainly leads to increased possibility of being murdered, if the motivations are there.
That is ludicrously simplistic.

Jamaica allows people to own guns.
Do you really want to see if they have a low murder rate?

Try this one on for size and see if it fits your formula:

I've just looked at United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime data for murders between 95 and 2011.

I picked a year that had data for several particular countries for direct comparison. The year is 2006. It was the latest with data for all.

In that year the British Virgin Islands got 8.6 murders per 100000, the US Virgin Islands got 39.2.

The USA got 4.8, Estonia (where I live and where SD firearms are permitted) got 6.8 and UK got 1.5.

Jamaica had 49.7.

Do you really want to keep beating this drum?
BTW, I've still not seen an answer to my earlier question.
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Old January 13, 2013, 04:16 PM   #34
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Exactly Pond, these comparisons are pointless, because all countries are different.
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Old January 13, 2013, 04:20 PM   #35
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JamesPond,

The UK gun ban and orher countries is being held up as a shining example of why we need to give up our rifles. More like being crammed down our throats actually.
So I've gathered but most of us realise, if we stop and think about, that UK crime figures have nothing to do with US crime.

So rather than trying to pick at those figures, you (collectively) should be telling those spouting the stats that you fail to see how they are relevant.
I certainly don't.

Show them there stats are pointless, and they'll have to resort to US stats which, surely, is more representative and useful.

However, playing their game of giving these stats credence in this debate by trying to counter them does you no favours...
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Old January 13, 2013, 04:21 PM   #36
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Quote:
The UK gun ban and orher countries is being held up as a shining example of why we need to give up our rifles. More like being crammed down
our throats actually.
What do you mean by uk gun ban. ?

The media will make up what ever they want to push their view. Pro gun or anti gun.
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Old January 13, 2013, 04:24 PM   #37
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The USA does not have universal gun laws, nor do they have universal self defense laws. So the rate for the entirety of the US is not even accurate. Some places your only option is to cower and take whatever the criminal decides to do. Other places have stand and fight laws and castle doctrines.

More and more places are, in fact, going to concealed carry licenses and castle doctrines ect...why is that?
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Old January 13, 2013, 04:27 PM   #38
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The trouble with looking at the UKs statistics is that since the ban on pistols there has been increasing amounts of gun violence.

Is this due to the fact there are no privately owned handguns?
No, I doubt it.

Every day in London the Police are finding weapons used in crrimes that no-one can legally own (pistols, ak47s etc).
So what does that show you,
It means that no matter what restrictions you have in place, criminals are still going to do what they want when they want, if they were people who upheld the law they wouldn't be called criminals would they.

The reason the UK has such little gun crime is that it is a completely different society and culture. Firearms are a huge part of English traditions and what makes the UK unique, they just have a different firearm culture than the USA.
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Old January 13, 2013, 04:27 PM   #39
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James and Manta,

Even when a respectable person counters the media they instantly become a crack pot. But what y'all are saying is good.
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Old January 13, 2013, 04:28 PM   #40
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Some places your only option is to cower and take whatever the criminal decides to do. Other places have stand and fight laws and castle doctrines.
The perfect basis for a realistic comparison of whether or not gun controls work.
Pick similar cities or counties for size, population and income and compare....

And all from within the borders of the most implicated country in this debate: the US.
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Old January 13, 2013, 04:33 PM   #41
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And there in lies the problem, the media won't compare US places with differing gun laws, they wanna focus on other countries.
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Old January 13, 2013, 04:33 PM   #42
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The dirty little fact is that the US has a lot of violent minorities.
If you normalize for race and ethnicity, the USA has about the same homicide rate as the rest of the industrialized world.
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Old January 13, 2013, 04:44 PM   #43
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This is a neat video discussing this very topic (at least to my understanding of what is being said here). He compares the stats on violent crime as put out by the FBI and the Home Office in the U.K. According to those numbers, the U.K. has a lower gun murder rate, but an overall higher violent crime rate than the U.S....but he also talks about why that is, why the media and politicians never talk about it and so forth. Its worth a watch!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ooa98...o1iYNg&index=4
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Old January 13, 2013, 04:47 PM   #44
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Quote:
This is a neat video discussing this very topic (at least to my understanding of what is being said here). He compares the stats on violent crime as put out by the FBI and the Home Office in the U.K. According to those numbers, the U.K. has a lower gun murder rate, but an overall higher violent crime rate than the U.S....but he also talks about why that is, why the media and politicians never talk about it and so forth. Its worth a watch!
I refer you back to my post #35.
True or not, what does it really bring to the table?
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Old January 13, 2013, 04:47 PM   #45
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In the last twenty years as right to carry laws have become more and more the law of the land the murder rate in the US has dropped by almost half. Violent crime has also seen similar dramatic decreases. Fatal firearm accidents have decreased by over half.

This while the number of firearm owners, number of concealed carry license holders, number of firearms have according to Gallup increased.

England has historically had lower murder rates this century even before firearm laws were passed.

Studies of firearm laws in this country have shown no significant measurable impact on crime rates.

Factors to do with culture, homogeneity of populations, education, economic opportunity, reporting and police practices and other such factors influence crime rates significantly much more so than firearm laws.

So these rough rate and number comparisons between murder crime rates are particularly useless unless one is a British talk show host on CNN or someone looking to make more of a meaningless comparison than is demonstrably there.
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Old January 13, 2013, 05:08 PM   #46
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And there in lies the problem, the media won't compare US places with differing gun laws, they wanna focus on other countries.
This seems like a golden opportunity to me.

As it stands the different networks have their own political bias anyway, so whatever they show will be to align with their viewers. Noone buys a newspaper that prints stuff that goes against their own views or opinions of the world order. People read newspapers to get the news, bu presented in a way that will ring true with their philosophies.

Same with CNN broadcasting to viewers who just want to hear their views confirmed.

I hate to say it, but same with TFL: So many people have been posting the same kind of things: how the antis are all wrong, how the antis are all emotional, how the antis are all ignoring the 2nd A' etc.

All that is preaching to the converted. Yes, members feel better and that they are not alone in their views, but their cause is advanced very little.

So.
Take the statistics from the States the media won't compare, take the real life stories of home owners, shop owners, people in the street for whom a fire arm has allowed them to defend their homes or themselves, be it a home invasion, an attempted mugging, a would-be mass-shooter or a hurricane aftermath.
Put them to film, post it, share it.
If that ex-soldier can write a letter and go viral, then why can't dozens of others. Don't wait for the lobby organisations to do it for you: it will look like and be propaganda. My guess is the people are sick of that, especially after such an in-your-face presidential election.

They want to hear from people, not spokespeople.

Keep it real, accurate, honest, and balanced (a clearly biased arguement is not more use than Piers Morgans rantings). Avoid any sensationalisation and everyday, ordinary people will see that gun ownership can allow for everyday, ordinary people, like them, to come out safe from extra-ordinary situations.
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Old January 13, 2013, 05:23 PM   #47
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I refer you back to my post #35.
True or not, what does it really bring to the table?
If anything it should stop the disingenuous country comparisons that folks like to make when talking about crime in the U.S. For example, on another forum, a member who was from the U.K. claimed that he never felt scared or feared walking down the street in London at anytime day or night. But when he lived in the U.S. (specifically Seattle, Washington), he made it a point to avoid leaving the house after sundown unless absolutely necessary. The reason? America is more violent or so he claimed. But why does he think that when statistically hes more likely to be a victim of a violent crime in the U.K. than in the U.S.?

We do have a higher gun murder rate, but (and I've pointed this out to people before) part of the reason is that other countries don't have near the gang and drug problem that we have and those two things account for the majority of gun homocides in the U.S. As was pointed out in the video, we need to look at the source of the trouble and the reasons if we are truly concerned about protecting people. Until we do that, imo, talking about statistics in order to, for example, ban guns is just BS talking points in order to illicit an emotional reaction from people in order to support an agenda; not solve or lessen crime.
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Old January 13, 2013, 05:24 PM   #48
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Pond says
Quote:
Jamaica allows people to own guns.
Do you really want to see if they have a low murder rate?
http://web.archive.org/web/200805100...IES_DRY_UP.asp

Quote:
According to the source, just under 700 firearm licences are approved each year and nearly half of those are issued to private security guard companies.



All applicants for licensed firearms are checked out by the police and once they meet a set of criteria, are given a 90-day permit by the divisional police superintendent. The applicant is given a firearm licence booklet on production of a receipt from a licensed firearm dealer indicating that he/she has paid for a certain model and calibre gun and ammunition. The booklet is then taken back to the dealer to collect the firearm and the holder must return to the police with the gun for inspection.
Each licence costs $1,000 and expires on March 31 every year.

If the firearm is not purchased within the 90-day period, the holder will have to submit a new application which may or may not be approved by the police.
But since February this year, hundreds of persons who have received firearm licences have been waiting to make a purchase.

One man who received his permit last month expressed his concern to the Sunday Observer that he could lose it unless he is able to acquire a gun by the end of December.
"The police allow you, by law, just three months to acquire the gun. If you fail within that period, the permit is automatically cancelled. That will force me to start the long process of applying for a next permit all over again," he said, unable to disguise his frustration.
He said he had tried the three licensed gun dealers on the island, but none of them had any firearms in stock.
The common man, the ones most vulnerable to criminal assaults simply can not afford the licensing fees to obtain a firearm.
The stated intent of the firearms laws in Jamaica is to eliminate firearms from the society. They intend to regulate gun ownership out of existence.

from Wiki
Quote:
Prime Minister Michael Manley expressed his determination to take stronger action against firearms, predicting that "It will be a long war. No country can win a war against crime overnight, but we shall win. By the time we have finished with them, Jamaican gunmen will be sorry they ever heard of a thing called a gun."[2] In order to win this war, Manley believed it necessary to disarm the whole public: "There is no place in this society for the gun, now or ever."[3]
And what effect have these draconian gun laws had on availability of weapons to the criminal and political gangsters?

Quote:
National Concerns

In spite of persistent efforts by Jamaica’s law enforcement officials, the smuggling of arms into the country, often by ingenious methods, continues to be of serious concern. The trade in illicit weapons is linked to the illicit drug trade, as guns are often exchanged for drugs and also used by “gang members” to reinforce and protect their turf and contraband from their rivals.

The rise in violent crimes has subsequently led to the increase in private firearm permit holders and the mushrooming of private security firms. As of December 2004, there were approximately 50,000 licensed firearm holders in the country.

Last edited by Rainbow Demon; January 13, 2013 at 05:33 PM.
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Old January 13, 2013, 05:33 PM   #49
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The common man, the ones most vulnerable to criminal assaults simply can not afford the licensing fees to obtain a firearm.
The stated intent of the firearms laws in Jamaica is to eliminate firearms from the society. They intend to regulate gun ownership out of existence.
I don't know what the common man earns, but 65,000 firearms is no small number, nor is 700 licences a year for a relatively small island. Some one is buying them. Fact remains that Jamaica has not outlawed guns.

Still: kinda ignoring all the other figures I posted there aren't you?

Care to comment on the almost factor-of-5 difference in murders between the US and UK Virgin Islands, seeing as you offered the latter up as a paradigm of your arguement?

What about the similar (3 and a bit times) ratio of UK to US figures?

What about the fact that Estonia, fastest growing EU economy in 2006 has a higher rate than both UK and US and has guns for SD?
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Old January 13, 2013, 05:57 PM   #50
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The US Virgin Islands will not recognize any firearms license issued by any US state. LEO and retired LEO are allowed to possess guns when they visit the islands, all others will have their firearms confiscated.

I haven't tracked down specifics on ownership by those native to the islands.
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