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Old January 12, 2013, 07:16 AM   #1
giaquir
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1911's

I see a small trend starting.
It wasn't too many years ago that
if you bought a brand of 1911 from other than Colt,
Kimber, SA that you were buying an inferior product
and were pretty much joked at.
Now I see a lot of people buying the Philippine based
1911's and praise-ing them.
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Old January 12, 2013, 07:30 AM   #2
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I see a big trend starting... More and more people are buying and enjoying all kinds and makes and models of guns and there are so darn many choices out here these days that it's becoming harder and harder to be an old-fashioned gun snob and hardly anybody cares if one is an old-fashioned gun snob because there are all sorts of friendly and more open-minded gun enthusiasts out here now so I say don't take any of it very seriously 'cause it's all good. Quality is important, but there are some reputable alternatives around for people on budgets.

PS: Buds is now selling Turkish Tisas 1911's (which reporting customers are liking) so I guess even Rock Island owners can be snobs now if they want to be:

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/i...Handguns/TISAS
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Old January 12, 2013, 08:59 AM   #3
USA SHARK
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1911 good for carry?

I don't own a 1911 yet, but really want to get one as my next addition. I currently have a Ruger SR40 and a Springfield XDm 9mm. The 1911 is going to be the 3rd and last purchase for some time to come, so I thought about getting it in the Commander (ie, Colt or the new Ruger if I could find one).

My question is, is a 1911 Carry size a good weapon to carry or would I be better off buying a different carry gun? I know there are a lot of opinions and it comes down to personal preference, but I'm curious if there are any big reasons for or against.

Thanks!
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Old January 12, 2013, 09:07 AM   #4
AdrianVall
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I kind of want to try out that Bersa 1911. Very reasonably price and looks pretty good.
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Old January 12, 2013, 09:13 AM   #5
CWKahrFan
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Commander size 1911's are OK for carry if you don't mind the weight.

But beyond that, you also might want to think about trading in your SR40 for a SR40c. I have one and always carry it with the smaller mag (9+1)... VERY nice size/weight and power level. You should be able to make that switch for somewhere around $100 to $150.
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Old January 12, 2013, 09:14 AM   #6
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USA SHARK... PM sent.
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Old January 12, 2013, 09:22 AM   #7
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I think with modern CNC manufacturing, and better manufacturing procedures, and processes it is becoming easier and more common to make a decent firearm at a lower pricepoint, without highly skilled labor, and still make it work.

That being said, I'd rather pay $900 - $1,100 for a new Colt. Not being snobbish, I just prefer the quality, and performance I know I'll get. Nothing wrong with the lower priced guns.
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Old January 12, 2013, 11:05 AM   #8
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USA SHARK
My question is, is a 1911 Carry size a good weapon to carry or would I be better off buying a different carry gun? I know there are a lot of opinions and it comes down to personal preference, but I'm curious if there are any big reasons for or against.
Those who like 1911s will tell you there is no better choice for concealed carry. Those who do not like 1911s will tell you there is no worse choice for concealed carry.

I carry 1911s. Personally, I find a full-size a little awkward and I prefer to carry a Combat Commander, although I sometimes carry an Officers ACP (3-1/2" barrel) or a Para Slim Hawg (3" barrel).
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Old January 12, 2013, 11:05 AM   #9
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Hmm... trade my SR40 for a SR40c and get the 1911 for the range and the XDm for home defense. I kind of like that idea!
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Old January 12, 2013, 11:30 AM   #10
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Carrying a 1911 is different than carrying any other pistol IMHO. I used to believe that it was no different than carry say a Sig or a Ruger but with more and more time on the platform I have come to realize it is a different animal than most other guns.

It requires more maintenance and more knowledge of how the gun works to keep it running at 100% which is what is necessary for a carry gun. It is not the same as carrying a Glock or a Sig P series which I have also carried. This does not mean you cannot or should not do it but you should go in eyes wide open. You should understand how it works. How to tweak and replace an extractor. How to replace and maintain a mainspring. I will not even get into mags....

If you carry and shoot a 1911 enough you will have to tweak and maintain your own gun or be able to afford to send it to or bring it to a professional IMHO. It is not that they are hard to work on. They are not but simply require more than most other pistols on the market. They were built during a time when hand tooling and hand work was cheaper than machine work and in order to function properly they need more hands on time than modern tactical plastic does.

I personally love carrying the 1911. I prefer the Commander or CCO setup. This is my current carry 1911 which is a custom Colt CCO. It is an officers grip with a commander barrel and slide. It balances well and conceals perfectly because the butt of a 1911 is the hardest part to conceal not the barrel or slide. For my body type the 5" govt is too long for me to conceal well.

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Old January 12, 2013, 01:25 PM   #11
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Ive seen many a HI-POINT, and TAURUS guns that are very reliable and great shooters as well. Bottom line... get what you like and can afford, and screw the gun snobs.
P.S. my HI-POINT is a better shooting, more reliable gun then my KIMBER, or my COLT 1911...Did I just say that out loud? LOL
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Old January 12, 2013, 07:19 PM   #12
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I find it amazing how that Colt looks almost identical to my S.A. .45 Ultra Compact 1911.

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Old January 12, 2013, 07:38 PM   #13
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"I find it amazing how that Colt looks almost identical to my S.A. .45 Ultra Compact 1911".
_________________________________

Or maybe your S.A. Ultra Compact 1911 looks almost identical to the Colt.
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Old January 12, 2013, 08:18 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USA SHARK View Post
Hmm... trade my SR40 for a SR40c and get the 1911 for the range and the XDm for home defense. I kind of like that idea!
That sounds perfect brother! good call.
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Old January 12, 2013, 09:29 PM   #15
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Blackwater, is that Springer a double stack? If so, I didn't know they offered a compact double.
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Old January 13, 2013, 10:36 AM   #16
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re:

Quote:
It requires more maintenance and more knowledge of how the gun works to keep it running at 100% which is what is necessary for a carry gun.
*cough*

Please.

Not this same old tired argument again...

Quote:
You should understand how it works. How to tweak and replace an extractor. How to replace and maintain a mainspring.
Not unless something is out of spec or the magazine of choice is losing control of the ammunition, causing the gun to push feed and force the extractor claw over the rim...which does seem to be the case these days.

Cleaning and replacing a recoil or mainspring periodically makes the gun high-maintenance? Really? They don't "need" to be replaced as often as most have been led to believe...and I've got extractors that have seen over 75,000 rounds without any attention at all beyond removal for cleaning from time to time.
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Old January 13, 2013, 10:59 AM   #17
WVsig
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Quote:
*cough*

Please.

Not this same old tired argument again...
Yes Tuner the same old argument. Look around everyone and their brother is cranking out a "version" of the 1911 these days. They are made by everyone at almost every price point. The majority of people making them treat the JMB spec and a starting point guideline not the blue print it should be. The good enough close to spec mentality of most of the 1911 manufacturers make this statement true in the real world. In a perfect world scenario where the guns is built to the JMB spec 1911 is a wonderfully reliable pistol the problem I have found is that not all of them are built in this manner these days on consistent basis. Add in the magazine variance and it get worse. Not all guns are built properly and these days the term 1911 does not designate the singular design it once did. My point was and is that with a 1911 it helps to know how to determine how close to or how far off the spec the "1911" variant you are choosing is. Is it necessary no but it helps....

With all due respect I sometimes I think you do not understand that many of the people posting here do not have the same point of reference that you have when it comes to the 1911 and other guns or guns at all. What seems simple and intuitive for you is not for others.... just a thought you might consider.

Quote:
Not unless something is out of spec or the magazine of choice is losing control of the ammunition, causing the gun to push feed and force the extractor claw over the rim...which does seem to be the case these days.

Cleaning and replacing a recoil or mainspring periodically makes the gun high-maintenance? Really? They don't "need" to be replaced as often as most have been led to believe...and I've got extractors that have seen over 75,000 rounds without any attention at all beyond removal for cleaning from time to time.
Same logic holds true for this part too. Look at how many people make 1911 mags these days. How many of them switch vendors or specs for springs all the time. Almost no one makes their own mags. The mag manufacturers don't make their own springs. How many of them use the same followers and feeding lips/geometry? Look at companies like Wilson whose mags are designed IMHO to overcome the deficiencies in a lot of modern 1911 manufacturing. I would argue that there are more out of spec mags out there then in spec mags if you use the original spec as a starting point. LOL Each part of the mag and too often the pistol it self is out sourced and you receive the part that submitted the lowest bid.

Detail stripping and cleaning a gun is not hard but I would bet the majority of gun owners even on their forum do not know how to do it on each and every one of the guns they own. From what I have seen the majority of shooters field strip and clean guns but do little beyond that. Again going back to the idea that you are bringing a ton of knowledge and experience to the table that simply is not present in most shooters and certainly not the person who is considering their first 1911 as the OP and the USA SHARK are.

I am not saying do not carry a 1911 or that it is all that hard to carry a 1911 I am saying it takes more effort than carrying a Glock or a Sig. The straight line quality control of the single manufacturer makes these guns easier to understand and easier to use for the vast majority of people. They were designed and built in the modern manufacturing era and their tolerances where created with that in mind. The 1911 however was reversed engineered for modern machine based mass production. Some do it better than others IMHO. YMMV
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Last edited by WVsig; January 13, 2013 at 04:23 PM.
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Old January 13, 2013, 11:30 AM   #18
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WVsig
Yes Tuner the same old argument. Look around everyone and their brother is cranking out a "version" of the 1911 these days. They are made by everyone at almost every price point. The majority of people making them treat the JMB spec and a starting point guideline not the blue print it should be. The good enough close to spec mentality of most of the 1911 manufacturers make this statement true in the real world. In a perfect world scenario where the guns is perfectly built to spec the 1911 is a wonderfully reliable pistol the problem I have found is that it is hard to find one built in this manner these days on consistent basis. Add in the magazine variance and it get worse. Not all guns are built properly and these days the term 1911 does not designate the singular design it once did. My point was and is that with a 1911 it helps to know how to determine how close to or how far off the spec the "1911" variant you are choosing is. Is it necessary no but it helps....
You are aware that pretty much everyone today machines 1911 frames, slides, and many small parts on CNC machines, and uses MIM for other small parts. The original 1911 was designed at a time when every part had to be machined by a person standing there and operating the machine. Most of the parts had a tolerance of .005", which by today's CNC standards is ridiculously loose. Consider slide-to-frame fit, for example. The frame spec was nominal - (minus) .005". The slide spec was nominal + (plus) .005". That means if you got a slide and a frame that were both machined exactly to the nominal dimension, the clearance would be .001". But if you got a slide and a frame that were both at the extreme of the tolerance, you would have a clearance of .011" and still be in spec.

Even the entry level makers beat that with every pistol they produce.
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Old January 13, 2013, 11:37 AM   #19
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Quote:
You are aware that pretty much everyone today machines 1911 frames, slides, and many small parts on CNC machines, and uses MIM for other small parts. The original 1911 was designed at a time when every part had to be machined by a person standing there and operating the machine. Most of the parts had a tolerance of .005", which by today's CNC standards is ridiculously loose. Consider slide-to-frame fit, for example. The frame spec was nominal - (minus) .005". The slide spec was nominal + (plus) .005". That means if you got a slide and a frame that were both machined exactly to the nominal dimension, the clearance would be .001". But if you got a slide and a frame that were both at the extreme of the tolerance, you would have a clearance of .011" and still be in spec.

Even the entry level makers beat that with every pistol they produce.
Yes I am aware of the tolerances that CNC equipment is capable of, however that is not the point I am trying to make. If it were simply a matter of machining parts within spec than every single 1911 pistol would run right out of the box no matter what the price point was but the facts are that they don't. The real issue is not how close to the spec is this part or that part a lot has to do with what is the spec they are using.

Again not arguing against shooting carrying or owning a 1911 but am simply trying to drive home to concept that all 1911s are not created equal and there are lots of guns being called 1911s where the manufacturers have for whatever reason deviated from what was know and proven to be reliable and this clouds the issue.
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Old January 13, 2013, 01:45 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca
Blackwater, is that Springer a double stack? If so, I didn't know they offered a compact double.
Yep! It is a staggered (double) stacked mag which holds 10 rounds.
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Old January 13, 2013, 02:09 PM   #21
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I carry a 1911 as my Every day gun. It is either my Colt New Agent or my Sig Nitron Ultra Compact, both in .45. Once you get used to the manual of arms for a cocked and locked gun, find a good holster and you will be very well armed.
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Old January 13, 2013, 04:09 PM   #22
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+1 to Tuner1911's comments.
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Old January 13, 2013, 04:26 PM   #23
WVsig
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Quote:
+1 to Tuner1911's comments.
I agree with 1911Tuners statements when it comes to 5" Govt and most Commander length 1911s but when you get into double stack officer models, CCOs, Agents etc.... which people refer to as 1911s the conversation completely changes.

Look at all the references to 1911s in this thread very few of them are talking about the same gun 1911tuner is talking about IMO.
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Old January 13, 2013, 05:20 PM   #24
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The percentage of 1911 pistols of any size, from any maker, that have problems from the factory is extremely small. IMHO, the real problem with 1911s is that there are so may aftermarket parts available. That's a blessing and a curse. Too many people just start throwing parts at their pistol with no idea what they're doing, then they wonder why it doesn't work any more.

Call it the "Bubba factor."
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Old January 13, 2013, 07:23 PM   #25
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I carry a Kimber Super Carry Pro in .45ACP as my every day carry, and my wife now has a Dan Wesson ECO 9MM.

To the point someone raised about them requiring more maintenance, I suppose I do spend more time maintaining my 1911s than I do my 92FS, but its not inordinate. Fact is, I like doing so.

Have 1000+ rounds through the Kimber and never a concern about the extractor or mainspring. Keeping an eye on it, and its about due for a new recoil spring, but no FTF or FTE issues.

I do think 1911s are more selective/sensitive to what they want to fire. For instance, the Kimber will only fail to feed or extract if I'm shooting lighter grain bullets or lighter powder loads. So I shoot 230 grain and l have dialed in the powder charge.

The Dan Wesson ECO 9MM was VERY picky during the break in period. 124 and 147 grain bullets were a must. 115 grain bullets caused FTE and FTF. The Checkmate 7 round magazines it came with are fine - its just a matter of the recoil spring needing to be broken in with a heavier load before the gun will cycle lighter rounds. That and all the tolerances are so tight. So running it wet, and now 200 rounds through it, functioning well. Will continue shooting heavier bullets until we get to around 500, then I'll see if it will reliably cycle 115 grain.

I like both of these guns, and I know as long as I maintain them, use the right ammo, and don't abuse them, they'll both provide us with years of reliable operation.
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