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Old January 11, 2013, 12:11 AM   #1
Niantician
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Carry philosophy changing with the times?

From the George Zimmerman case, to the recent mass-shootings, there's no denying the negative trend towards gun ownership. It has me wondering if a prosecuter, and later a jury would be less sympathetic to someone who used deadly force to defend themselves against an adversary who was armed with anything less than a firearm. (In a public setting)

Would that change the type of handgun you carry? Knowing that the only time you would ever be justified in using it would be against an attacker who is also armed with a firearm, and not a knife, or club, or other weapon.
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Old January 11, 2013, 03:29 AM   #2
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A deadly weapon is a deadly weapon be it firearm ,knife, club, or ice tea can they are all inatimate objects that are tottaly harmless untill someone uses one with with the intent to cause harm.
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Old January 11, 2013, 04:22 AM   #3
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Thats our opinion. A politically motivated prosecuter, or an emotional jury may feel differently.
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Old January 11, 2013, 04:26 AM   #4
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Guess the real question is how much if your life worth to you? Not trying to be snide... but I carry a firearm for one purpose... Life insurance. Sure I love target shooting.. but that is not why I carry a .45ACP tucked in my waist band every day.

If I deploy a firearm in a public setting you bet your bottom dollar its going to be to preserve my life, or someone else's life. There are some things worth risking a battle in court for.
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Old January 11, 2013, 04:41 AM   #5
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And if duty to retreat laws get much stricter, and sentances for breaking those laws change. You will ignore them? Maybe its just because I live in one of the "ground zeros". But I feel that attitudes towards any use of a firearm whether in self defense, hunting or recreational are changing for the worse.
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Old January 11, 2013, 04:46 AM   #6
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Let me rephrase.. If the only time you were legally justified to use a firearm in self defence was against an attacker with a firearm... Would you still carry a pocket 380?
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Old January 11, 2013, 05:01 AM   #7
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I won't carry a 380 now but thats just me. As far as worrying about a jury Id rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. I really dont want to have to fire a shot in anger ever again but if its me or them its damn sure gonna be them I have a family to take care of.
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Old January 11, 2013, 08:28 AM   #8
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As the old saying goes: "It's better to be judge by a group of twelve than carried by a group of six"
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Old January 11, 2013, 09:00 AM   #9
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I see nothing happening that supports the basis of the argument in the OP. It is pure and baseless speculation.
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Old January 11, 2013, 10:12 AM   #10
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Not entirely baseless, at least in the sense that Punisher grips or "Smile! Wait for flash!" engraved around the muzzle won't do any favors for the defense.

Any normal handgun should be fine, assuming one's actions were justified, but some touches could cause problems.

In any case, I would expect to need an attorney and a defense expert witness or two.

Edit: I don't know what the pocket .380 issue would be. I typically carry a 1911 or P01, but in more restrictive clothing might carry a P7, PPS, or 442.
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Old January 11, 2013, 10:24 AM   #11
Glenn E. Meyer
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1. Any common handgun that is also used by the law is a good bet. That covers very efficacious handguns.

2. Get a lawyer or sign up with organizations like the Armed Citizens Defense League that can help. You need a lawyer that is aware of the specific firearms related issues.

3. Don't be stupid. At the range - I saw a fellow that had put a skull logo on the back of his Glock Slide. That will look great. The DA won't have to say anything, just have it displayed.

Given these common sense precautions - I see no need to carry a 380 over a 9. That would be based on dress or whatever.
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Old January 11, 2013, 10:47 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLeake
Not entirely baseless, at least in the sense that Punisher grips or "Smile! Wait for flash!" engraved around the muzzle won't do any favors for the defense.
Yeah, but that's not what he's talking about and attitudes toward those sorts of things is and has been negative for a very long time.

I don't see any negative change in the attitude toward self-defense. Quite the opposite actually.

More specifically, I see no shift in attitude toward the only justification for use of a gun being against an adversary armed with a gun. This would, in actuality, require a lot more than a "shift in attitude", since the legal justifications for use of deadly force aren't based on the choice of instrument used to accomplish that force.
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Old January 11, 2013, 11:10 AM   #13
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Brian and Glenn, I agree, although my preferred sidearms are not in general LE use. Then again, my normal ammo (HST) is.

Police in my neck of the woods carry Glock and Springfield XD, neither of which are my preference.

With regard to what does or does not justify deadly force, it is funny to see opinions change when I find the anti who is willing to let me show them how quickly a competent person could really injure them using nothing but bare hands. I don't actually harm them, I just demonstrate taking a joint to its limit - while carefully not exceeding the limit, or application of carotid pressure until they start to grey out.

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Old January 11, 2013, 11:11 AM   #14
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I see it as "The Sky's falling!" attitude.. I don't see change in carry philosophy what-so-ever based on past or current events.
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Old January 11, 2013, 11:37 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Niantician
From the George Zimmerman case, to the recent mass-shootings, there's no denying the negative trend towards gun ownership. ...
I have to agree with others: I see no general negative trend among my fellow citizens. All of those empty gun counters are not because supply has decreased, but rather demand.
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Old January 11, 2013, 01:19 PM   #16
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It seems to me that the antigunners have gotten much more vocal in the months since the Zimmerman/Martin incident. I don't really think their numbers have increased that much, though. Sure, a few fence-sitters fell off onto their side of the pasture, but I'm sure a few fell off onto our side, too.
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Old January 11, 2013, 01:30 PM   #17
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I find it interesting how the middle's perception of Zimmerman has changed as facts have emerged. What seemed clear in the spotlight of early emotion has shifted under the daylight of facts.

However, given the Zimmerman thread is locked, we probably do not want to go further down that path.
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Old January 11, 2013, 04:45 PM   #18
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The state of Tennessee has always outlawed carrying any weapon "with the intent to go armed." Little old ladies who walk around armed with baseball bats or golf clubs are in violation of this law.

Further it has been noted that the permit is a "Handgun Carry Permit" and excludes the tactical knives and tantos so favored by the para-military groups now.

That said, weapons at hand, kitchen knives, lamps, ice-picks, all are considered "deadly weapons" in assault cases.

In Tennessee, deadly force is justufied in defense in face of death or bodily harm to the person or third party, no matter how they may be armed.

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Old January 11, 2013, 05:01 PM   #19
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It is important for each of us to know and understand the laws applicable to their State and local community.

In my area, we are subject to "Stand Your Ground" and the "Castle Doctrine". Therefore, I am not concerned about a Grand Jury Indictment as long as I am protecting my property and/or personal safety. Our State Law is crystal clear. The only worry might be a civil suit.
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Old January 11, 2013, 05:08 PM   #20
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My states law is the same as Lamar's.
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Old January 11, 2013, 05:24 PM   #21
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I think the reality - of the consequences of the aftermath of a shooting ...should be a real concern to any or all of us that carry / if we ever have to use a gun in a public defense situation.

Its just part of the reality ...lawsuits, etc.../ but what it means to me, is you have to be extra careful, and properly trained....to use that gun as a last resort - and not to be too cavalier about it.

Will it make me change the weapon I choose to carry no ....and I don't know why the OP mentioned the .380 .../ but I wouldn't ever carry a .380 anyway ...my personal choice 99% of the time is a 1911 in .45 acp ...and the current environment won't change that decision.

But to ignore the consequences - that will likely occur after the fact - is not smart either. To me, it should be part of our individual decision on whether to carry or not as responsible gun owners. I've made my decision - and I think with my eyes open on the potential consequences...and the financial cost that is likely to occur as a result.
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Old January 11, 2013, 05:35 PM   #22
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Honestly I think our side is growing faster than tha anti's side. The nra is growing rapidly and in just the last few weeks I have 3 friends that have made their first firearm purchases . The media may try and say diffrent but if u believe half of what they report you have been seriously mislead.
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Old January 11, 2013, 06:39 PM   #23
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I would think the precedent of firearm response to a knife has been well settled in the courts, bring a knife to a gunfight, and you lose, first at the scene, then in civil and criminal court.

Voir Dire, selecting a jury, should work to keep the knuckleheads off a jury.

Getting to your question about mass shootings, so a guy pulls a Tanto short sword at the mall, and starts slicing up innocent shoppers. You pull a piece and shoot him, now he's in a wheelchair for the rest of his life. Do you think it's even going to trial? Any prosecutor who tried to paint you as less than a Very Good Guy is going to be out of office in short order, and he knows it.
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Old January 11, 2013, 07:08 PM   #24
g.willikers
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Betcha' all the anti gun hype is only in the media and in Washington.
In the real world, people aren't that stupid about self defense.
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Old January 11, 2013, 07:42 PM   #25
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Some are just that stupid. I have met a few of them.
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