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Old January 10, 2013, 03:06 PM   #1
longshotman
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Carbine Williams

A friend gave me a rifle to look at which I believe is a Carbine Williams (M2) but do not know for sure. It is marked with serial numbers etc including what appears to be the date 1942. It looks similar to the WWII M1 but the stock appears like a standard rifle. The only name anywhere is on the rear site that says "Williams". Can anyone provide information on this rifle or tell me where I can obtain information. It is a very unique rifle.
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Old January 10, 2013, 07:14 PM   #2
Scorch
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Sounds like an M1 Carbine with a Williams sight on it.

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Old January 10, 2013, 07:24 PM   #3
PetahW
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IIRC, M2 Carbines were a selective fire (full auto), Class III weapon.

While "Carbine Williams" is credited in some circles with the development of the M1 Carbine, I've never heard of an M1 or M2 Carbine referred to as a "Carbine Williams" or "Williams Carbine".

Some pics, especially of the markings/stampings, would help to clarify what you were shown.


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Old January 10, 2013, 08:07 PM   #4
crazy charlie
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I think he was credited with the short stroke piston not the final design of the military carbine of the U.S. forces.
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Old January 10, 2013, 08:21 PM   #5
James K
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The Williams of Williams Gun Sight Co. was not, as far as I know, connected in any way with David Marshall "Carbine" Williams. They are still in business:

http://www.williamsgunsight.com/about_us.htm

I once got called down on another site for saying that soldiers generally called the WWII rifle the "M1" rather than the "Garand". The other poster called me several kinds of names and questioned my intelligence, sanity and ancestry. So if one must cater to those folks and call the M1 rifle a "Garand", why not call the M1 carbine a "Williams"?

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Old January 10, 2013, 10:16 PM   #6
Winchester_73
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I sold my williams earlier this year. I probably should have kept it.
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Old January 11, 2013, 09:33 PM   #7
Bob Wright
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James K:

Quote:
I once got called down on another site for saying that soldiers generally called the WWII rifle the "M1" rather than the "Garand". The other poster called me several kinds of names and questioned my intelligence, sanity and ancestry. So if one must cater to those folks and call the M1 rifle a "Garand", why not call the M1 carbine a "Williams"?
During the five years or so in which I was issued/handled the rifle, it was always referred to as "your rifle" or the "M1". Nobody in any outfit in which I served had any idea who John C. Garand was. As to the carbine, they were referred to as "the Carbine." (Most of ours were the M2) We also were issued the "B.A.R." and the "Grease Gun."

And:

Sergeant: "What is the nomenclature of this rifle?"

Soldier: "This is the US Rifle, caliber .30, M1."

Sergeant: "Describe this rifle."

Soldier: "The US Rifle, caliber .30, M1 is a semi-automatic, gas operated, air cooled, clip loaded, self feeding shoulder weapon."

That from over fifty five years ago!

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Old January 11, 2013, 10:12 PM   #8
James K
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Well, this guy claimed that everyone in the Army knew all about John C. Garand and that they almost always called the rifle by his name. I don't know how old he is, but in my experience no one old enough to have carried one called it anything but the "M1". The ones who call it a Garand seem to be the generations who never carried one and often have never actually seen one outside books.

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Old January 12, 2013, 08:09 AM   #9
FALPhil
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Quote:
Well, this guy claimed that everyone in the Army knew all about John C. Garand and that they almost always called the rifle by his name.
He was wrong. All 4 of my uncles who fought in the infantry in WWII did and still do refer to the Garand as the "M1".

I was in a navy reserve unit on active duty in the 1970s, and everyone, including the armorers, referred to the Garand as the "M1". Everyone also referred to the .30 M1 Carbine as the "carbine".
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Old January 12, 2013, 12:07 PM   #10
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Maybe I will refer him to you the next time, but there won't be a next time; I won't respond to one of his asinine posts again. I was told he had been barred from several sites because whatever someone said, he argued with them and got into name-calling contests.

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Old January 12, 2013, 09:58 PM   #11
Mike40-11
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Yeah. Most current soldiers have no idea who Eugene Stoner is either.
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Old January 13, 2013, 10:10 PM   #12
Bob Wright
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A further word about soldiers and the use of the name "Garand."

When I was in the Army in basic training, the draft was still very much in effect. When told the M1 was gas operated, many asked questions such as "How (Or where) do you get the gas in?"

And, "How long does the gas last?" or , "How often do you have to fill it up?"

These were serious questions, not smart alecks trying to sharp shoot the instructor. If any recruits were at all familiar with rifles, it was a.22 or a .30-30.

You think these boys knew who John C. Garand was? Not a chance.

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Old January 14, 2013, 03:40 PM   #13
James K
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In fairness, soldiers in WWII or at least the early part, were probably more likely to know the name Garand because the popular press had covered the Johnson-Garand controversy (poorly as usual when it comes to guns), and the American Rifleman had run several articles on the new rifle. (The NRA had less than 30,000 members at the time, but the magazine probably reached more.) Other magazines had run articles also, so the name Garand was "out there" at that time.

Still, the official nomenclature was the "U.S. Rifle, Caliber .30, M1"*, and that is what it was called by rifle instructors. To cause further confusion, the Army had decided in the late 1920's to begin using a new nomenclature system to replace the old model year system. The first service rifle to be adopted after that was the "Garand" rifle, so it was called the "M1". There was also an M1 tank, M1 truck, M1 helmet, M1 carbine, M1 submachinegun, and so on.

In spite of the multiplicity of "M1's", when a soldier said, "Hand me my M1", he was talking about his rifle, not a tank or a helmet. The M1 carbine was always the "carbine" and the M1 SMG, like its M1928A1 predecessor, was a
"Tommy gun." The term "M1 carbine" was never used unless there was a need to distinguish it from the M2 carbine.

*The first nomenclature was U.S. Semiautomatic Rifle, M1" and the first 80 rifles were marked "U.S./SEMIAUTO. RIFLE/CAL. .30 M1". At serial number 81, that was changed to the familiar marking that was used to the end of production.

Jim
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