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Old January 9, 2013, 10:04 AM   #1
spacecoast
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Are cops saying silly things?

Not picking on law officers, but this is an example of exaggeration gone wild in the current environment...

My wife is an elementary school teacher and on Monday, the first day back after the holidays, the teachers and administrators had a "code red" planning meeting which included a local law enforcement officer. The subject of the meeting was, of course, what to do in a Sandy Hook-like situation where gunfire can be heard in the building and a "code red" alert is issued.

I'm not sure why, but the LEO for some reason said "With an AR, a bad guy can fire 1,000 rounds in two minutes". Two minutes was mentioned as the time needed for the police to arrive (highly optimistic IMHO).

Maybe this rate of fire claim was made just to impress the teachers (the vast majority of which are young females), but as I told my wife later this claim was ludicrous for a number of reasons - the number of full magazines it would require one to carry, the rate of fire needed, the number of magazine changes, etc. Anything approaching 1,000 rounds in two minutes would require a belt-fed full auto machine gun with a sophisticated feeding mechanism. Even a skilled rifleman would be hard pressed to do anything more than 100 rounds per minute using a semi-auto AR with any kind of aiming at multiple targets involved (just my rough estimate). It may be lower than that, not sure.

I hope this anecdote is just an outlier on the spectrum of truth and that the LEOs talking and working in our schools are a little more realistic about what they are saying.
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Old January 9, 2013, 10:17 AM   #2
Brian Pfleuger
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I doubt it has anything to do with cops or guns, in particular. All kinds of people say incredibly ignorant things, about anything you can imagine.

On rate of fire, the reports indicate that the Aurora shooter can be heard on 911 calls firing 27 rounds in 30 seconds. I'd say that's a reasonable max rate for semi-controlled fire. 54 rounds a minute.

In regards to this specific incident, I would consider contacting the school and the agency to correct the record, anyway.
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Old January 9, 2013, 10:23 AM   #3
Double J
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Goes to show that nuts don't just grow on trees. Lots of police and military are not well versed on firearms. It's just a job. Some are better suited for the job than others.
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Old January 9, 2013, 11:07 AM   #4
Aguila Blanca
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Too many police know essentially nothing about guns.

The theoretical cyclic rate of fire for a full-auto M16 ranges from 650 rounds per minute to 800 rounds per minute. That's on full auto. BUT ...

While there are 40-round magazines out there, they aren't reliable so the magazines of choice are typically 30-rounders. Even on full-auto, the maximum rate of fire is slightly more than 10 rounds per second, so a full magazine dump takes between four and five seconds. After which, the firearm is empty, and doesn't shoot until reloaded. So the actual rate of fire is severely affected by how fast the shooter can reload, and how quickly the firearm overheats.

But the "assault weapons" we see in "civilian" hands are not full-auto military firearms, they are semi-automatic rifles. The sustained rate of fire is still subject to magazine capacity, time needed to reload, and overheating considerations, and in addition to how fast the shooter can repeatedly pull the trigger.

The latest reports about the Sandy Hook shooting indicate that the shooter fired approximately 150 rounds, total. The time interval still has not been accurately pinned down, at least in any report I have read. Early estimates said three to five minutes, other reports said it took the police 20 minutes to arrive. Even if we take the very shortest time that has been yet mentioned -- three minutes -- that's only 50 rounds per minute, or 100 rounds in two minutes. That's ONE TENTH the rate suggested by the police "expert" in the opening post, and this is from the recent, actual, real world shooting that sparked all the furor.
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Old January 9, 2013, 11:18 AM   #5
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Double J is right, we often make the mistake of assuming police officers are knowledgable in firearms just because they carry one. While they may have been trained and be proficient with what they carry, for many that is the extent of their knowledge. I remember watching a COPS episode where an officer was trying to determine if a weapon he confiscated from a car was loaded and I was cringing at how unsafe he was as he fumbled with it in front of the camera. Can't remember what type of pistol it was, but the magazine finally just fell out on the ground. I don't think he ever cleared the chamber.
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Old January 9, 2013, 11:33 AM   #6
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" While there are 40-round magazines out ther"
There are reliable 60 and 100 round magazines out there. Surefire makes them. The 60 is the same length as a 30 and as wide as 2 30's clipped together.

Many LEO's are gun people but some are not. I was at my girlfriend 's Dad's over the holidays and her Dad and Stepmother are both cops in Chicago's south burbs. Her Dad is kind of a gun guy and had a Colt compact .45 on the counter. We started talking guns when Stepmother came in and almost seemed scared to see the gun out and being handled. She is also the cop that told my gal that radar detectors are illegal in Illinois? LOL
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Old January 9, 2013, 11:45 AM   #7
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I have turned an m16 barrel white, and it didn't take long.

What always strikes me about these incidents is there is always a lot of video where officers are milling around in full tactical gear, pockets and pouches stuffed to the max. As an army veteran I understand that putting on all that garb takes some time. Why didn't they just grab a rifle and show up as soon as possible? I understand that patrolmen probably did that and they called in the tactical squad, but still, not every event needs that gear. I never have liked the police dressed like soldier bit, do I may be biased.
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Old January 9, 2013, 11:55 AM   #8
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I might be able to do that with a SAW if I linked the belts together, but I'd bet I'd shoot out the barrel.
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Old January 9, 2013, 01:07 PM   #9
ClydeFrog
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Signal Zero....

In my local area, a "man with a gun call" or a "shots fired" call is a LE code: signal zero.
Police & LE should respond ASAP. I've heard the avg LE response time to a call is approx 28min. The county deputies & police in my city have taken up to 45min to answer calls for service.
As for the semi-auto rifles & handguns, the ATF, DHS or Dept of Education should put out a training video or PSA to guide schools, colleges, teachers.
There should be a uniform, fluid response to any school event that may occur.
Local PDs, FDs, first responders, and medical centers should prepare for any homeland security or active shooter events.

A few years ago, a deranged man went into the large office bldg where he was an employee & went on a spree shooting. The office bldg had no armed security or systems(access control). The metro PD's response was sub-standard. The mayor was livid. I don't blame him. The SWAT & first responders had a full scale training drill within 2 weeks.
PTAs & parents need to stay on the school admin/district. They can stop the rumors, myths & panic.
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Old January 9, 2013, 04:01 PM   #10
5.56RifleGuy
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My buddies set an AK hand guard on fire and made the barrel droop with around 800 rounds of sustained fire. It took a hell of a lot longer than 2 minutes. The one guy is pretty amazing at laying down fire with a semi auto too.

Here is a link of to the video if any of you want proof.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs6iS...3929F4&index=7

I think 1000 rounds in two minutes is a pretty good joke.
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Old January 9, 2013, 04:28 PM   #11
spacecoast
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Man, that thing burned for a long time... and lapsed into full auto at times. Cool video. The hose clamp was a nice touch.

Last edited by spacecoast; January 9, 2013 at 04:34 PM.
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Old January 9, 2013, 04:35 PM   #12
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Fun fun fun....

In 1990, while on a US Army range in USFK/Korea, a few MPs & I watched as a guy in our squad fired a M-16a1 5.56mm full auto with milspec tracers.
The target & stand burst into flames! We were all surprised by the tracer hits.
It was quickly put out & we all had a good laugh.
Fun times.
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Old January 9, 2013, 04:37 PM   #13
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Diller, it also took 3 guys as their trigger fingers got tired pretty fast. Nice video by the way.
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Old January 9, 2013, 04:40 PM   #14
Xfire68
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" lapsed into full auto at
times. "
That was "Bump fire" not full auto. You can bump fire just about any semi auto rifle that has enough recoil.
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Old January 9, 2013, 05:03 PM   #15
spacecoast
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Quote:
That was "Bump fire" not full auto
My mistake... thought it might be from the abuse it was taking
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Old January 9, 2013, 07:53 PM   #16
5.56RifleGuy
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Like Xfire said, just bump fire, no full auto. They actually still use that thing. I actually shot it (very very reluctantly) not too long ago. It goes without saying, it hits a bit low.

That one guy is really fast on the trigger isn't he? I still don't think it would be possible for anyone to shoot 500 rounds in 2 minutes. You can see how tired they all get after a mag or two.
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Old January 9, 2013, 07:58 PM   #17
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I'm fifty five, have been a shooter for fifty years and a gun owner for 48 of those years. I've owned and operated a firearms business for thirty four years and have been in law enforcement for twenty seven years. Most but not all law enforcement officers that I have come into contact with, are
IGNORANT ABOUT FIREARMS! (I did say most but not all!)

I think the reason is the upbringing and age of the recruits. In the fifties and sixties, it was common for boys and even some girls to have their own rifles or shotguns. We all went shooting sticks tossed in the river, hunting, etc. very often with no grownups around. In my personal case, I would get off of the school bus, walk thru the front door of the house, stop at the gun rack, pick a long gun, climb over the back fence and I was in the "wilds".

Most new law enforcement recruits these days are in their twenties. That means they were born in the late eighties or early nineties. By then, the damage to society was done. Liberalism was starting to run rampant. Guns were bad! Kids weren't allowed to just go shooting. They weren't allowed to "play" with them, take them apart, handle them or Heaven forbid, shoot them without 110% adult supervision. Many of them never even held a handgun until two weeks before the Academy was to start!!!!

Our Sheriff's Department has to qualify twice a year with their duty weapons..shotguns, rifles, primary side arm and back up. Yes, they are all usually very safe with their weapons. Yes, they know how their own personal weapons work...for the most part. Yes, they can shoot well enough to qualify...most of the time. Yes, they know how to field strip their own weapons....sometimes. However, hand them something that they've never handled before and they're totally lost. (Most but not all!!) I mean come on!! All firearms have a trigger, a muzzle, etc. All revolvers have cylinders. All semi auto's have something that slides back and forth. Figure it out! It's only common sense.

Some of the things that I have personally witnessed and heard would be funny if they weren't so scary. "Hey! Anybody see where that bullet went? How do I unload this thing? Which target am I shooting at? (You're standing on a numbered pad and looking at numbered targets!) Will this ammo fit my gun? I think my gun jammed. Which direction are we shooting? Can I shoot magnums in my 9mm? Why do these bullets keep falling out of my clip. (Yes, clip and they were 9mm's that he was trying to load in a .45) " I've seen people trying to load .45 mags into their 9mm's. ("But it said SIG") etc. etc. And this was with their personal duty weapons! Surpisingly, woman recruits did much better. Maybe because they know they're not experts and pay attention?

Ok, a funny story to end up with: Our Department has practice days. It's paid time and they supply the ammo so I go whenever possible. The range bosses set up a course and it's timed. So this day, I go out there and it's all high ranking supervisors and SWAT. (No, I don't like SWAT or supervisors) The course that they had set up was a barricade about 30 yards from staggered poppers...little metal plates on stands that fall over when you shoot them. You had to run down to the next barricade and shoot seven poppers. They were staggered at different distances ranging from 2 yards to 5 yards. I'm third in line. First and second are a couple of SWAT commandoes in full dress. The whistle blows, SWAT dude #1 runs to the 2nd barricade and it sounds like WW III. This guy went thru 2 1/2 high cap mags in his pistol. SWAT dude #2's turn comes up and he goes thru almost 3 high caps. That's about 40 to 50 rounds each. I'm thinking "Oh cr@p. There must be suprise targets down there. They set us up with extra "bad guys". I don't have enough bullets. I only have three ten round mags with me. I'm gonna embarass myself when I have to reload my mags on the line".

So, I grit my teeth, jog down there and begin firing at the poppers. One shot in #1, it's down. One shot in #2, it's down. One shot in #3, it wobbles but it's not down. A second shot and it's down. One shot each in # 4, #5, #6 and #7. They're all down. Eight shots, eleven in the pistol, three left...dump the mag, tactical re-load, scanning... WHERE ARE THEY AT? Then I realize the range boss is yelling at me. I'm done. I got them all. Huh? I got the high score with the fastest time that day.
It made me realize two things:
The higher up the chain the supervisors go, the worse they shoot.
SWAT can't shoot for cr@p!
Keep yer powder dry, Mac.

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Old January 9, 2013, 08:32 PM   #18
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There are places in my patrol area that take 25-30 minutes to get from one end to the other. People think we run a slew of cars every shift, not true. Our minimum patrol is 5 cars. For thirteen towns. I shudder to think of an active shooter in some areas.
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Old January 9, 2013, 09:11 PM   #19
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New shooters; gun owners, true story...

I agree with Mac(and with the CT trooper).
About 4 years ago, I did my mandated state re-qual with my Ruger GPNY .38spl revolver. The young guy in the lane next to me was "new" & never fired a real sidearm before. He made a few minor errors & put his 9mm rounds in a Glock magazine backwards.
On the live range, the security class student shot a great 240/240 with no effort.
It goes to show that some shooters have natural talent & just need to learn tradecraft. It's not hard but some people(cops, guards, military, etc) make it difficult.
I could shoot all day if I had a open range or unlimited ammunition sources.
Only the bright sun, heavy rain, bugs, or constant loud noises would make me want to quit. I've shot outdoors & indoors and I prefer indoors for most handguns.

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Old January 9, 2013, 09:27 PM   #20
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I think a point is being missed. A thousand rounds of rifle ammunition, (besides .22) along with a rifle and the boxes or magazines that hold them all is going to be quite a bit of weight. Maybe you guys that were trained in the military to lug that around could do it but the average individual can hardly carry their own weight around much less anything else.
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Old January 9, 2013, 09:32 PM   #21
TXAZ
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Continuing to fire a weapon that's burning...

Is it just me, or do others think the guys in DLiller's linked youtube video above are missing some screws firing a weapon that's intentionally on fire?
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Old January 9, 2013, 09:43 PM   #22
elDiabloLoco
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500 rpm's on semi auto. 8.3333 trigger presses per second, repeated 120 times without pause.

Might not be good for the bad guy's trigger finger. One heck of a case of carpal-tunnel, probably requiring a trip to the gub'mint assisted health care waiting room. Bad guy will probably expire waiting for treatment.

Math rooles. Perhaps the LEO was mixing up his stats, and confused semi-auto rate of fire with the rate the Fed is printing funny money.

lol
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Old January 9, 2013, 09:44 PM   #23
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Mac's!
Cops can't shoot from cr@p! ????? I spent three tours on our SWAT teams. Scores of 90 or better on standard BLET courses for pistol, rifle and shotgun or you were placed "on notice". Thirty days of remedial training and a retest. If scores of 90 and better were not achieved the officer was sent back to the line. I don't remember anyone ever going back to uniform because of firearms issues. Our personal goals were 95 or better. At least two thirds of the team members wore Distinguished Marksmen pins indicating they had shot a score of 100 at least 5 consecutive times. We could all shoot! I shot well until I had to start wearing those #@%$$ progressive bifocals. Prone and kneeling from the 25 yard line were a bear. I dropped back into the low 90's. Got kicked upstairs so I didn't have to keep redeeming myself.
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Old January 9, 2013, 09:56 PM   #24
ChasingWhitetail91
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Sure some law enforcement may exaggerate from time to time, but at the end of the day they do perform a very dangerous and needed job. Saying most but not all cops aren't proficient with their firearms is as bad as the original exaggeration that a person can fire a thousand rounds in two miniutes.
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Old January 10, 2013, 05:51 AM   #25
spacecoast
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Quote:
I think a point is being missed. A thousand rounds of rifle ammunition, (besides .22) along with a rifle and the boxes or magazines that hold them all is going to be quite a bit of weight.
Yeah, I hinted at that in the original post. I don't have a case of .223 to weigh, but it has to be at least half the weight of the case of 7.62x39 I just bought (a lot), plus, where do you put 33 magazines?

Quote:
Is it just me, or do others think the guys in DLiller's linked youtube video above are missing some screws firing a weapon that's intentionally on fire?
I have to believe they had done this before, at least to the point of setting the handguard on fire, and that is why they had the hand guard with the forward grip. They also switched to gloves when it started getting too hot to handle.

Last edited by spacecoast; January 10, 2013 at 06:57 AM.
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