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Old December 27, 2012, 01:30 PM   #1
pumkin
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+P+ ammo in Glocks ??

A neighbor of mine has some ammo thats +P+ IN 9MM. I've been wanting to get some good penetrating ammo for my Glocks, in a 40 and 9mm. I figured some fmj in a +P would be fine. But this guy has some +P+ in 9mm. Is this stuff to powerful for Glocks? I don't want to tear my guns up. The brand of ammo is called Bufalo Bore. What do you Glock people think about this?
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Old December 27, 2012, 01:42 PM   #2
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My understanding is that +P+ ammo has no formal standard as does other ammo, so not sure any manufacturers recommend it. I personally would not run any in my gun and feel +P in a good quality bullet design should perform just fine. If you feel you need more power consider a 10mm.
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Old December 27, 2012, 01:46 PM   #3
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http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/index.php

Double Tap Ammo has very potent loads that have heavier bullets at higher muzzle velocity without being "+P" - I shoot them in my 45s

.45 ACP
230 gr FMJ or Gold Dot JHP
1010 fps/5" bbl
515 ft lbs muzzle energy

also -

40 S&W
165 gr (FMJ & GD HP)
1200 fps / 4" bbl
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Old December 27, 2012, 02:26 PM   #4
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I shoot +P+ Winchester Ranger 127gn in my Glock 26 and G 17...No problems, no undue wear, no difficulty shooting accurately and quickly.
In fact, I use it because of its excellent accuracy.
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Old December 27, 2012, 02:49 PM   #5
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Here we go again...

+P+ ammo is, by definition, loaded to pressures in excess of industry standards. Few gunmakers endorse its use, and when they do, such endorsements are often informal and/or heavy with disclaimers. Many manufacturers will not honor the warranty of a pistol that is damaged while using +P+.

I do not know Glock's official stance on the issue; I've tried answering this question before, but have always come up with confusing and contradictory information, which is probably what led you to post this thread in the first place.

The "correct" answer is to follow the recommendations in the owner's manual, but the manual is not always crystal clear, as illustrated here...
Quote:
The Ruger P-Series pistols are compatible with all factory ammunition loaded to U.S. Industry Standards, including high-velocity and hollow-point loads, loaded in brass, aluminum, or steel cartridge cases. No 9mm x 19 ammunition manufactured in accordance with NATO, U.S., SAAMI, or CIP standards is known to be beyond the design limits or known not to function in these pistols.
You have to read between the lines to realize that Ruger is NOT endorsing the use of +P+, as it does NOT meet "NATO, U.S., SAAMI, or CIP standards...", but this fact is not immediately obvious unless you know what the standards are!

Shooters are split on this issue; some avoid +P+ outright, some use it sparingly, and others use it all the time and write off the people in the other camps as worrywarts. Many +P+ threads degenerate into pointless bickering between the first and third groups.

In the interest of full disclosure, I generally avoid +P+, which is admittedly somewhat ironic because several of my 9mm pistols live on a diet that mostly consists of likewise warranty-voiding handloads!
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Old December 27, 2012, 04:17 PM   #6
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I do know that Glock did not like that their guns should shoot a lot of the INS load in G23's. the old INS load was a 155 JHP at 1250 FPS, while not +P designated it is hot. The 9mm Glocks are designed for 9mm NATO, which is similar pressure to +P 9mm. I hope that is not confusing...
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Old December 27, 2012, 04:26 PM   #7
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My 2 USPSA OPEN G34s push a 121 MG bullet @ 1450. They both have KKM barrels. I would not do this w/a Glock barrel.
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Old December 28, 2012, 12:23 AM   #8
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OK, well this helped me out, nice link OJ. I'm not going to try any +p+.
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Old December 28, 2012, 04:48 AM   #9
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pumkin, if a Glock cannot handle 9MM +P+, I wonder what pistol could? I believe many, me included, would agree that the Glock is one of the most rugged, durable, heavy duty pistols produced.

While I have no horse in this race, FWIW, I'll just pass along my personal experience over a period of years with 9MM +P+ ammo. I have an old copy of information provided by Glock to Law Enforcement agencies reference the Glock's ability to safely fire +P+ and other ammo. With reference to acceptable ammo, it is not the same information as provided in the commercial owners manual. Glock indicated that the +P+ would not decrease the survice life of their pistol. Within my humble experience, LE agencies do not tend to issue ammunition that will be dangerous to officers or the public, or significantly decrease the service life of authorized or issued weapons, etc. Although a lot of 9MM +P+ finds it's way into regular commercial channels, the +P+ is sold to agencies on "hold harmless" type agreements. I suspect millions of rounds of 9MM +P+ must be produced every year by major U.S. ammunition manufacturers in order for it to be profitable for continued production.

Anyway, I have shot a significant amout of 9MM +P+ in Glock, HK, Ruger, SIG, S&W and 9MM 1911 Colt, Kimber, Dan Wesson and Springfield pistols. In the case of the S&W and Rugers, I have also used the +P+ in the S&W 547 and Ruger Sp-101 revolvers. without any detectable excessive wear, damage or other issues. In short, I would not hesitste to use 9MM +P+ ammo produced by major American manufacturers in my Glock 9MM pistols...ymmv
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Old December 28, 2012, 08:17 AM   #10
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I have used the same +P+ Ranger 127gn load I now shoot in my two Glocks, in a Beretta 92FS, a Browning HiPower, a Sig P6, and a S&W 469. No issues in any of them. No flattened primers, no unusual case bulges, nothing. As far as recoil and control, it feels like shooting a...9mm.
I like this particular round because it is high quality, it is a well designed bullet, and in every pistol I have fired it in, it provides a high level of accuracy. In fact, I would go so far as to say I have fired the tightest groups of any ammo I have tried in all of the above firearms. It is also a round with a lot of street history in LEO shootings, showing performance at the upper end of 9mm loads.
If others are afraid to use this high quality ammo, that is fine...more for me.
As far as DoubleTap, I have used their ammo in several different calibers. It is good ammo. However, I have read several chrono tests which show lower velocities than what DoubleTap claims. My feeling is DoubleTap, while good ammo, does not perform to the level it's price should reflect.
While I have not tried either Underwood of Buffalo Bore, their ammo seems to test closer to their velocity claims.
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Old December 28, 2012, 11:36 AM   #11
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To each his own, I guess. I feel no need to shoot +P ammo with the safe Double Tap ammo available for most any calibers.

I confess, Glock's advice to shoot NO reloads made a believer out of me - I had bought a box of "factory reloads" - feeling they were "different" than reloads done by more or less amateurs - and shot them through my Glock 23. The last round in the magazine was louder than anything on the range - the magazine was blown out and the slide was really locked back - and there were several internal parts broken - though easily replaced - I felt lucky to have had no injury though, I sure would have had if I hadn't been wearing eye protection - my face was well sprayed with fine stuff it took some weeks to disappear.

Everyone on the range stopped shooting for a while so we could evaluate the situation - the range officer who sold me that ammo assured me it was OK to shoot in my Glock concluded it happened because my gun must have been dirty - I never have any guns dirty enough to cause such.

My thoughts are you might get away with shooting +P and +P+ in your guns and never find out it's not a good idea - until your gun blows up in your hand - and face - not a good experience, believe me.

The Double Tap stuff is a little pricey but, for limited shooting - is some fun - don't know it's really good for much except fun shooting - possibly more effective in personal defense - but- I doubt it.

I confess I've shot some Buffalo Bore .38 special ammo in my .357 revolvers - but - that's a whole different story than shooting +P in autoloaders IMHO. The .357 revolvers are strong and don't have reciprocating parts - Also, I've always suspected BB makes the +P claim mainly to sell ammo for those who shoot .38 special ammo in .357 revolvers - more power than .38 special but less recoil than .357 ammo - it's what my wife carries in her Ruger GP 100.

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Old December 28, 2012, 11:55 AM   #12
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I shoot +P+ Winchester Ranger 127gn in my Glock 26 and G 17

I have too, but man they are little flame throwers. If you can’t hit them, at night you sure can blind them.
As far as shooting reloads at +p, not ever. At least not from cases that had been fired in a Glock. Cases balloon when fired out of a Glock and the stretching weakness a case from firing HOT loads.
Some may think that Glocks are the most rugged gun in the world (not me) but the cases are not.
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Old December 28, 2012, 12:08 PM   #13
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You could just buy a Glock chambered in .357 Sig.......
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Old December 28, 2012, 12:14 PM   #14
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The factory Glock barrel is not a barrel I would even think about running high pressure loads in. An aftermarket barrel is much much better.
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Old December 28, 2012, 01:16 PM   #15
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Quote:
I have an old copy of information provided by Glock to Law Enforcement agencies reference the Glock's ability to safely fire +P+ and other ammo. With reference to acceptable ammo, it is not the same information as provided in the commercial owners manual. Glock indicated that the +P+ would not decrease the survice [sp] life of their pistol.
Can you post a copy of it, or type out what it says, along with the document name and publication date?

I've seen numerous 'Net posts that claim basically the same thing, but the actual document always seems to be in the hands of the poster's friend's cousin's auto mechanic's buddy who is a cop. I'm beginning to think that these documents were written in ciphers by ancient Druids and are kept on engraved stone tablets in a perpetually locked vault at Glock HQ.
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Old December 28, 2012, 02:18 PM   #16
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Quote:
the range officer who sold me that ammo assured me it was OK to shoot in my Glock
That was your mistake. Buying reloads from your local "Joe Reloader" can be a disaster waiting to happen.

He may have 25 years of reloading under his belt but, that still does not make him a licensed, insured company that can legally sell you reloaded ammo.

My guess is that was not a +P+ load but, rather a double charged load. "+P+ loads are loader and have more recoil but, not enough to do what you described happening to your Glock.

Quote:
Glock's advice to shoot NO reloads
I don't know of any gun companies that don't say that in a disclaimer.

But, yet there are 100's of thousands or reloaded rounds safely being fired each month in these same guns that the companies say not to. It's the cover your rear clause that they put in the disclaimers for those few that don't follow rules or made a simple mistake.
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Old December 28, 2012, 03:27 PM   #17
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Before going any further - I intended to make it clear I was responsible - no one else - but - it appears ai didn't make one thng clear -

Quote:
Quote:
the range officer who sold me that ammo assured me it was OK to shoot in my Glock

That was your mistake. Buying reloads from your local "Joe Reloader" can be a disaster waiting to happen.
The box of reloads he sold me were factory reloads - not from "Joe Reloader" - so I assumed they would be safe - I've made mistakes before. My guess, in retrospect, was the reloaded case might have allowed the bullet to be pushed back and seated too deeply when it was chambered - thus producing a much higher pressure on firing than the gun was designed to handle. Whatever - but, it became quite clear to me even if reloads came from a factory - they were still "reloads" and, the cases had been stressed at least once -

Hope that clears that up -

That was somewhat of a side issue - my point was - how will any one shooting +P+ ammo know it wasn't ok unless the gun blows up in their face? That's how I learned factory reloads were not safer than any "Joe Reloader" loads or any reloads. I've paid tuition for lessons before and probably will again - I won't be 100 years old for almost 14 years more -

Sorry I didn't make that point clear.
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Old December 28, 2012, 03:40 PM   #18
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There is no way you can compare "factory reloads" to first line, major ammo company self defense ammo, or even to boutique brands like DoubleTap.
My experience with +P+ Ranger ammo is in four different brand pistols, and in two Glocks. No problems with any of them.
In fact, I started using this ammo after reading recommendations from Massad Ayoob and browning HiPower expert Stephen Camp.
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Old December 28, 2012, 03:48 PM   #19
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Quote:
There is no SAAMI specification for "+p+" ammunition.
But, if your loading ammo above recommended load data listed in published reload manuals you should be looking for over pressure signs. Flattened primers, Pierced Primers, bulging cases, Cratered firing pin strike, Enlarged primer pockets to name a few.

You don't need a gun exploding to show you there are issues with over pressure. Although that can be one of the signs if you shoot 1 hot round that your gun can't handle.

Edit: I should add that if your reloading any ammo you should be looking for these signs as well, even if it's within the published data.
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Old December 28, 2012, 04:28 PM   #20
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If you need more penetration than you can get from standard ammo you might just want to switch to a different caliber.
Standard, or "regular" +p ammo should give you all the penetration you need - after all, it's all manufactured to what the FBI considers optimal penetration depth. Or, if for some reason it doesn't, I'd switch to a .357mag/10mm as apposed to wearing out or possibly damaging your current guns.
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Old December 29, 2012, 12:56 AM   #21
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Wow, everybody hear sounds convincing, and that they truly believe in what they are saying. Well, I'm looking to buy some +P 9mm in FMJ. The double tap don't offer fmj in that. Anyone know of any +P fmj? I want penetration. I'm not saying you guys saying +P+ is OK are wrong. I don't want to chance it. drail, what aftermarket barrels would you suggest? I have a model 17, and a 22,that I would like to have the capability to turn into a 9mm . So what aftermarket kit should I get? OJ and amd6547, I appreciate all your responses. Seems all the other posts to this thread were good also.
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Old December 29, 2012, 04:27 AM   #22
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Hello?

It's a Glock!!!
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Old December 29, 2012, 09:58 AM   #23
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Quote:
Well, I'm looking to buy some +P 9mm in FMJ. The double tap don't offer fmj in that. Anyone know of any +P fmj?
If you're indeed looking for +P and not +P+, 9mm NATO is what you're after.

NATO max pressure is slightly less than SAAMI +P max pressure but is higher than the normal SAAMI or CIP 9mm standards; however, unlike SAAMI and CIP, NATO ammo is certified to deliver a minimum velocity under specific test conditions, so it has to be loaded pretty hot, whereas commercial FMJ practice ammo is often loaded at low pressure to prevent failures of older and relatively fragile guns.

All 9mm NATO uses FMJ bullets. IIRC the NATO standard allows a ~20gr range of permissible bullet weights, but AFAIK all NATO loads that are commonly available in the USA use 124gr bullets.
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Old December 29, 2012, 10:35 AM   #24
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If you think you need +p+ or even +p move up to a higher power round. Problem solved. I would not use it in any of my pistols but that's just me. Its a much better deal for the ammo makers then it is for the end user.
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Old December 29, 2012, 11:05 AM   #25
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http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...hp?cPath=21_37

Quote:
pumkin Wow, everybody hear sounds convincing, and that they truly believe in what they are saying. Well, I'm looking to buy some +P 9mm in FMJ. The double tap don't offer fmj in that. Anyone know of any +P fmj? I want penetration. I'm not saying you guys saying +P+ is OK are wrong. I don't want to chance it. drail, what aftermarket barrels would you suggest? I have a model 17, and a 22,that I would like to have the capability to turn into a 9mm . So what aftermarket kit should I get? OJ and amd6547, I appreciate all your responses. Seems all the other posts to this thread were good also.
Yesterday 02:28 PM
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