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Old January 11, 2013, 03:13 PM   #26
munson1
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Sounds like you guys never humped in the Nam!!!!!!!

I did!!!!!!

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Old January 11, 2013, 04:06 PM   #27
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I'd be carrying something with an alloy receiver like the Winchester SXP, Winchester 1200 or 1300, The weatherby TR series, etc. Not an all steel 870, as much as I liek the 870 it wouldnt be my choice.

I'd probably opt for a bare bones 1200 like one I had.


Throw a sling on there and you're off to the races.
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Old January 11, 2013, 08:36 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by sccoty
Thanks for all the replies. I guess I should clarify. Hikes will be up to 5 miles in distance. I will also use the gun at camp. So weight isn't a big issue but lighter is better. The largest predator I could encounter is a grizzly bear. I do carry spray but would also like to increase my defenses with a shotgun. The gun doesn't have to fit in a pack. I would like it to have a folding or telescoping stock with a pistol grip, rather than just the pistol grip. Additionally a shorter barrel for slugs while still holding maximum amount of shells and a quick draw sling or holster of some kind. Hopefully this clarifies things a bit.
Ahh. That helps. If you're traveling in grizzly country, a shotgun isn't a bad thing to have along if you don't mind the extra weight.

Is there a particular reason, other than style, that you want the folding stock/pistol grip deal? For your intended use, you don't really need them. A plain-Jane wood or synthetic stock will do just fine -- synthetic might be a bit lighter, but light isn't always good in a shotgun; a heavier gun will absorb more recoil. Also, a stock with a pistol grip will limit your selection a bit: they're not compatible with Mossberg and other shotguns with the safety mounted on the rear of the receiver, as you can't reach the safety very well while holding the pistol grip. They work fine with the Remington-style safety, which is located on the rear of the trigger guard. If you can go to a range and try some shotguns, you'll get an idea of which control setups you're most comfortable with.

Also, a shotgun with a wood stock and forearm will set you back a lot less than one of the black, "tacticool" ones; the latter are way overpriced at the moment, just because people like the look of them.

I also wouldn't worry too much about a "quick draw" setup for the shotgun. Some sort of scabbard attached to your pack should do fine -- and a regular case that's the right size for the gun would give it more protection from the elements, so I wouldn't rule that out.

Your bear spray should still be your first line of defense. It's much more important to have that in a quick draw holster, attached to your belt, not your pack (which you'll take off a lot more often than your belt). And if you're moving through an area where visibility is limited, such as an alder thicket, or around large rocks near water, the bear spray should be in your hand. There's good evidence that bear spray is more effective than firearms in bear defense when it's used properly -- the bear is deterred from attacking, and you're actually less likely to be injured. For an overview of this topic, look here. That said, the shotgun could be a lifesaver if you run into the rare bear that comes back for a second try, or stalks you after the first encounter.

Also, you may find that shotguns are fun, and want to use yours for other things: trap shooting... hunting... If you do, a very short barrel will be a hindrance. Mossberg (and other makers, for all I know -- I haven't checked recently) makes a combo set, with an 18" barrel for defensive use, and a longer one for other uses. (It's absurdly easy to swap barrels -- no tools required.) This would be another reason to steer clear of the "tactical" models, which may not take the longer barrels.

And, of course, when you do get your shotgun, go shoot the heck out of the thing. Get really comfortable with it before you take it to bear country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ripnbst
I'd be carrying something with an alloy receiver like the Winchester SXP, Winchester 1200 or 1300, The weatherby TR series, etc. Not an all steel 870, as much as I liek the 870 it wouldnt be my choice.

I'd probably opt for a bare bones 1200 like one I had.
Eeee... yes. That would be just right -- and good-looking, too.

Last edited by Vanya; January 11, 2013 at 08:55 PM.
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Old January 11, 2013, 08:53 PM   #29
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Grizzly country?......maybe a 45-70 lever rifle?????
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Old January 11, 2013, 08:59 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by BigDinFL
Grizzly country?......maybe a 45-70 lever rifle?????
Eek. Oh, puleeze, don't open that can of worms...
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Old January 12, 2013, 06:33 AM   #31
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Vanya:

I get the distinct impression, you write with a good deal of experience and expertise on these matters. So I'd like to get your opinion on something. Much has been written about the dangers of accidently running into a mama grizzly and her cubs. But isn't an old bear (regardless of gender); one that has trouble finding or catching food, and is very hungry, just as dangerous as the mama with cubs?

If I remember correctly, the bear that killed Timothy Treadwell & Amie Huguenard was an old starving male. I also recall that the search party didn't have to look for this bear. This bear actually charged the search party (at which time it was shot and killed). Because it was old and hungry, it's behavior was different than a typical grizzly. Do you think pepper spray would work on such an aggressive bear? Would this be the type of bear encounter where the campers would be better served with a shotgun?

Last edited by Rifleman1952; January 12, 2013 at 06:43 AM.
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Old January 12, 2013, 07:18 AM   #32
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Unless armed and on a hunt, why does anyone fail to pay attention to where the bears are and then, often intentionally, get within 1/4 mile of them?

Avoid the bears people...they were there first.




ps: Yes, I also avoid snakes.
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Old January 12, 2013, 12:37 PM   #33
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Rifleman, you're probably overestimating my expertise, but I'll do my best.

The bear that killed Treadwell and Huguenard was indeed an old, hungry one, as you mentioned. It was also, very likely, well used to the presence of humans at very close range, as Treadwell had been camping in that area for a long time, and refused to take even the most basic precautions, such as carrying bear spray, or having an electric fence around his tent, which is standard practice for bear researchers, even some hunters -- anyone who deliberately camps in an area where they know there are bears.

If you happen to run into such a bear while hiking, you won't know what shape it's in. The stats do show that for those encounters, bear spray is your best defense. If a bear approaches your campsite, again, the odds are that the spray will stop an attack. If the bear comes back, that's when you may be very glad you have the shotgun...

I know some people who had to shoot a polar bear under such circumstances while on a canoe trip in the Arctic. They tried to avoid the bear as best they could -- moved their camp several miles downstream to get away from it -- but it was clearly stalking them. Finally, it approached their camp in way that said "You are prey" -- at which point they shot and wounded it, and it left. They called the Canadian authorities, who came in by helicopter and tracked and killed the bear. I've seen the video they shot of their encounters with that bear, and there's no question that it was hunting them.

So, yes, it was very good that they had a shotgun along. But note that even with plenty of time to get the gun, and plenty of time to aim, the shooter wounded the bear rather than killing it. Scary. And that's one of the big problems with firearms: you can miss, or wound, and then you may have a hurt, enraged bear charging you -- this is the reason more people are injured defending themselves with firearms than with pepper spray. It's harder to miss with the spray (although the bear does have to be rather close), and it does in fact stop the bear. With a firearm, you have to make a brain shot to be sure of stopping a charging bear, and that's a very small target that's bouncing around while you're trying to hit it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nasty
Unless armed and on a hunt, why does anyone fail to pay attention to where the bears are and then, often intentionally, get within 1/4 mile of them?

Avoid the bears people...they were there first.
Well, you can pay all the attention you like, and there may still be a bear where you can't see it, in thick brush or around a corner of the trail. I've camped a lot (on long canoe trips) in brown bear country, and we always scout a potential campsite for bear sign. If we find any recent tracks or poop, we just move on.

But as for intentionally approaching a bear just for the heck of it -- that's dumb. Most bears who aren't acclimated to humans will head the other way right quick, once they scent or spot you, but why push your luck?

There's a surprising number of people, though, who think it's Disneyland out there, and all the critters are cute and friendly.

Last edited by Vanya; January 12, 2013 at 12:49 PM.
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Old January 12, 2013, 01:14 PM   #34
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Thanks Vanya. After reading your reply, I think it a good idea to have some bear spray along with the firearm, next time I'm in Black bear county. I really don't want to shoot a bear unless I have to. I'll keep a shotgun at the campsite or cabin and hike with my Colt King Cobra, and a can of bear spray. I doubt, I'll be hiking in Brown bear country anytime soon and probably never in Polar bear country, but the survival story of those folks being stalked by the Polar bear is something indeed!
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Old January 14, 2013, 11:49 AM   #35
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Vanya you hit the nail on the head! I'm interested in a telescoping/folding stock so I can fold it up while it is attached to my pack just to make it smaller. Less gun hanging around to knock into the back of my legs, trees, rocks etc. The pistol grip is for quick draw use when the stock is collapsed. Yes, I also want to use it for hunting and trap shooting so the ability to change out the barrel is ideal. I'm not interested in "tacticool", my first priority is functionality.
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Old January 14, 2013, 03:20 PM   #36
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Glad to help.

But... at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I think the folding stock/pistol grip thing is more likely to be a hindrance than a help if you do need to get at and use the shotgun quickly. If it's in a quick-draw setup, I could see a folded stock hanging up much more easily than a conventional one, and even if it doesn't, if you do need the gun right then, you'll have a choice between asking the bear to wait while you unfold the stock, or using the shotgun as a pistol-grip-only one.

The former is probably impractical, and the latter will seriously affect your ability to hit anything (much less make a CNS shot) with any type of load, much less one that produces as much recoil as the Brenneke slugs.

A short-barreled (18.5-inch) shotgun with a standard stock should fit fine in a case or scabbard, and won't project much, if at all -- depending on the dimensions of your pack, of course.

And if you turn up at the trap range with a folding stock and pistol grip on your gun, it won't make it any easier to learn. And traditionalists may laugh at you behind your back...
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Old January 14, 2013, 03:38 PM   #37
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Suggest you fire a pistol grip only shotgun and see if you really like it. I hate them. You have to do a lot of hip shooting to become proficient and accurate with them (or if you shoot from eye level, don't expect a fast follow-up shot). I prefer a folder or even better, a fixed stock like the Speedfeed that gives you four extra shells.
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Old January 15, 2013, 12:28 PM   #38
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This is a crazy idea but if you want a compact shotgun have you considered a SBS? If you are willing to pay a $200 tax and are legally allowed to have it, could be a good option. If you go with a very short barreled, pistol grip double barrel it'd be very compact. Hatcher even makes a holster for such a weapon. They also sell the gun too, as do many other manufactures.
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Old January 15, 2013, 12:42 PM   #39
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He wants a gun he can also use for trap shooting. What you describe might not work so well for that...

Last edited by Vanya; January 15, 2013 at 12:50 PM. Reason: rearranged the words.
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Old January 15, 2013, 01:51 PM   #40
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One of the things I was told to learn in bear country is the identification of thier poop. It could be helpful in saving your life by knowing the threat you may be facing in the area. The comment I liked best was " if it smells like pepper spray, its from a Grizz. A joke maybe, but I think there's a subtle message in there somewhere.
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Old January 15, 2013, 02:09 PM   #41
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It's only partly a joke, dwaawd. One of the common misuses of bear spray is to spray it on stuff -- tents, packs, whatever -- thinking that it's a "bear repellent" when used that way. It's not -- bears find it very interesting.
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Old January 15, 2013, 08:02 PM   #42
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Actually grizzly bear poop has those little bells in it and smells like pepper spray.
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Old January 19, 2013, 12:37 AM   #43
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Quote:
Actually grizzly bear poop has those little bells in it and smells like pepper spray.
Heh heh heh, exactly. . man, if I'm going into bear country where they come big and golden (or god forbid) white, I don't care how heavy it is. I'm bringing a .50BMG semi


But back on track - hiking with a shotgun? Even a five hour hike is a little short, but I would be more than happy with a Serbu Shorty AOW. Frankly, if I'm not bringing my GP100, I'll hump the 590A1 along no problem.
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Old January 19, 2013, 12:51 AM   #44
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sccoty - where are you planning on hiking? Nat Forest, state park, national park, fed land? Alaska, Colorado, Wyoming?

Have you hiked, I mean really hiked (not walked to the deer stand), with a long gun before?
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Old January 19, 2013, 11:43 AM   #45
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I haven't hiked before, but I have spent 2 days camping and from sunrise to sunset I was bear hunting with a 45-70 New England. By the end of the day you know it's there, but a single shot with a synthetic stock is pretty light.
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