The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 10, 2013, 10:50 AM   #26
Constantine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 5,173
Quote:
Just because someone's not supposed to do something doesn't mean they won't do something. That's why we have prisons and jails.

Rabbits eat lettuce?

Elaborate more please? lol


Quote:
I sure hope none of them Glock guys read this, they'll be a-braggin' the benefits of plastic.
Oh man...I don't know what their battle is going to be about this. I'm sure the same would have happened with any other gun manufacturer or worse.
__________________
Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen
Constantine is offline  
Old January 10, 2013, 12:50 PM   #27
Mello2u
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,424
Quote:
Win73


Quote:
If the facts of the incident are accurate, I'd say that using either term "spontaneous discharge" or "accidental discharge" would be correct.
"Spontaneous discharge" would definitely not be correct. Anything spontaneous happens without outside initiation.
You are correct, I stand corrected.
__________________
NRA Life Member - Orange Gunsite Member - NRA Certified Pistol Instructor
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society,
they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it.
" Frederic Bastiat
Mello2u is offline  
Old January 10, 2013, 06:43 PM   #28
dayman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2011
Location: The Woods
Posts: 1,061
Well that settles it - no guns in the MRI.

You have to wonder how the cop in question didn't know that you're not supposed to bring metal objects in there.
__________________
si vis pacem para bellum
dayman is offline  
Old January 10, 2013, 06:46 PM   #29
leadchucker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2011
Location: NC
Posts: 252
I can't imagine any medical tech in his/her right mind allowing any metal, and especially a firearm, anywhere near an MRI machine.
__________________
JOIN THE NRA!
leadchucker is offline  
Old January 10, 2013, 08:01 PM   #30
orionengnr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2004
Posts: 4,981
Been looking for a reason to try one of those titanium 1911 firing pins.
Think I just found it.

leadchucker, I like your sig line.
orionengnr is offline  
Old January 10, 2013, 08:24 PM   #31
iraiam
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2012
Location: Lakewood, CO
Posts: 872
NOT spontanious

This does not qualify as a "spontanious discharge", the firing pin struck the primer due to the effects of the magnetic field and the inertia of the gun striking the machine.

This same thing happened here in Colorado some years ago only the pistol did not discharge, A security guard did a similar move and his Beretta was pulled accross the room into the MRI machine, The Beretta was de-cocked; when a Beretta 92 is in the de-cocked position the firing pin is pointed away from the primer.

I also remember an incident where a fire extinguisher was pulled into an MRI machine, striking and killing the patient.
__________________
NRA Lifetime Member Since 1999

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few public officials." George Mason
iraiam is offline  
Old January 11, 2013, 03:18 AM   #32
tipoc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2004
Location: Redwood City, Ca.
Posts: 2,347
The article claims it is from 2001.

Claims the gun was cocked and locked and a series 80 to boot.

I've been in MRIs quite a few times. I did not need to take off my watch, or remove the partial bridge from my mouth. The clip board the tech was useing has a steel clip, and there were quite a few steel things in the room and none were drawn into the machine. So it seems odd to me that a holstered gun would fly across the room and fire.

tipoc
tipoc is offline  
Old January 11, 2013, 08:20 AM   #33
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 35,876
"I've been in MRIs quite a few times. I did not need to take off my watch, or remove the partial bridge from my mouth. The clip board the tech was useing has a steel clip, and there were quite a few steel things in the room and none were drawn into the machine. So it seems odd to me that a holstered gun would fly across the room and fire."

Not all MRIs are the same. Designs have changed significantly over the years, including the field strength of the magnets. Additionally, MRIs can be operated at a variety of field strengths.

Without knowing the EXACT specifications on the machines you were in, vs the machine in this incident, about the only think you can say for certain is that you had some MRIs.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old January 11, 2013, 09:31 AM   #34
Constantine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 5,173
Quote:
I've been in MRIs quite a few times. I did not need to take off my watch, or remove the partial bridge from my mouth. The clip board the tech was useing has a steel clip, and there were quite a few steel things in the room and none were drawn into the machine
I've been in three for sustained physical injuries. Each time I had to remove everything that was metallic and get into either my underwear or that robe they give.

They even made me sign a paper saying that my tattoos could possibly become distorted from the magnet if the ink is a certain type...


My tattoos are fine.


Anyways, the story does seem off now that I think about it, because they don't TURN on the thing until you're in there. So how and why was it even on to begin with before the man even entered the room is beyond me.
__________________
Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen
Constantine is offline  
Old January 11, 2013, 09:35 AM   #35
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 35,876
"Anyways, the story does seem off now that I think about it, because they don't TURN on the thing until you're in there."

Incorrect.

MRIs take a considerable amount of time to come to full power and become stable, so they are generally kept powered up for long periods of time.

Depending on the procedure, if it required a higher level of magnet strength, they may well have been increasing it prior to the procedure.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old January 11, 2013, 02:04 PM   #36
tipoc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2004
Location: Redwood City, Ca.
Posts: 2,347
Mike,

The story is hinky. I'll ask someone that knows something about this subject and these machines the facts. Till that time I'm skeptical about it.

Quote:
I've been in three for sustained physical injuries. Each time I had to remove everything that was metallic and get into either my underwear or that robe they give.
Same with me except that I could wear a wrist watch and kept the steel bridge in my boca with no problem. Steel objects were in the room and nothing went flying.

I used to build the magnets for these things (Stangenes Industries in Palo Alto, Ca.) so I do know a bit about the power of these magnets.

The story is not about the power of the magnets though, but about whether a shielded MRI machine can pick up an object over 2 pounds in weight that is in a holster and fly it across the room so that it strikes the machine with enough force and holds it in such a way that an otherwise safe gun can discharge.

In this case the grip safety would have to have been depressed to allow the firing pin to move forward and the firing pin would have to moving at enough velocity to set off the primer. The hammer was locked back so it did not strike the firing pin.

It is theoritically possible that it could happen with a powerful enough magnet but in this sit I'm skeptical that all facts are there.

tipoc

Last edited by tipoc; January 11, 2013 at 02:11 PM.
tipoc is offline  
Old January 11, 2013, 02:21 PM   #37
Constantine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 5,173
Quote:
MRIs take a considerable amount of time to come to full power and become stable, so they are generally kept powered up for long periods of time.

Depending on the procedure, if it required a higher level of magnet strength, they may well have been increasing it prior to the procedure.
People operate them differently. Same way people operate cars differently.

Still doesn't matter if it's correct to you or not.

It shouldn't of been an accessible room in the first place. Whether it was on of off. I never had metal even go as far as the same vicinity of the MRI rooms.
__________________
Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen
Constantine is offline  
Old January 11, 2013, 02:29 PM   #38
Mausermolt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2007
Location: Ory-gun
Posts: 502
i had a 1911 drop the hammer every time i would take it off safety....that got me ordering new parts in a darn hurry! just glad it didnt have a round in the chamber when it happened the first time. my friends would have been calling me "2 toed joe"
__________________
Molon Labe
Mausermolt is offline  
Old January 11, 2013, 06:08 PM   #39
5.56RifleGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 9, 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 1,135
Shouldn't the safety lever be all beat up if the gun discharged with the safety on? Wouldn't the slide take smash against it? Or would the slide not move for some reason?
5.56RifleGuy is offline  
Old January 11, 2013, 06:22 PM   #40
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Why would a steel component be all beat up? It would just lock the slide in place, turning it into a single shot.

You can hold the slide from reciprocating with your hand, on a 1911 - though be careful not to do it in an area where you will be subject to muzzle blast or slide bite, if you try it. A good piece of tool steel won't have a problem.
MLeake is offline  
Old January 12, 2013, 01:58 AM   #41
Lost Sheep
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2009
Location: Anchorage Alaska
Posts: 2,982
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedudeabides
A 1.5 Tesla magnet is strong enough to launch a four foot oxygen canister clear across the room, lift a four hundred pound hospital bed, and rip shrapnel out of people's bodies--or burn them.

I would totally believe that the firing pin block was disengaged by the magnetic field.
That's one of the two theories I have. Firing pin lifted by electro-magnetism or by inertia/centrifugal force or igniting the primer by some other means.

I was fascinated by this several years ago when I first heard about it. It was beat near to death back then. It was investigated by the Rochester Police Deptartment. The gun was found with the safety on, the empty casing still in the chamber and the hammer still fully cocked. The only unasnwered question I could find was whether or not the primer had a firing pin indent.

I spoke to an MRI tech to see if an MRI could set off a primer (through heat generated by eddy currents or by a spark caused by electrical interference of anything. He did not know the mechanism, but did say that when he was taking his training that he was told that ammunition could be set off.

If you are interested, there is another article in the publication Radiology in 1994, 193:875-876 indexed under terms "Firearms" and "Magnetic Resonance (MR), safey" and entitled "Firearm Safety in the MR Imaging Environment" written by Emanual Kanal, MD and Ali Shaibani, MD six handguns were tested to see if they could be induced to fire by being near or in the bore of a 1.5 Tesla MRI machine. That is the same strength of the machine we have been discussing here.

These were the six guns.

Smith & Wesson Model 66 2.5" .357 Magnum revolver
North American Arms 22 Magnum mini-revolver
Taurus PT-92C 9mm Semi-auto
Glock Model 19 9mm Semi-auto
Browning BDA-380 380ACP Semi-auto
Star Model M-43 Firestar 9mm semi-auto

Not a lot of other stuff I have been able to find.

It happened Sept 13, 2000
September 14, 2000 •• 347 words •• ID: roc2000091410192034
MRI `disarms' police officer Just call it a really magnetic attraction. An off-duty Rochester police officer went to Borg Imaging at 200 White Spruce Blvd., Brighton, yesterday for a magnetic resonance imaging test. The officer asked an office worker about his handgun and, according to Brighton police, was told to keep it with him. But as soon as the officer entered the room holding MRI equipment, the heavy-duty magnet yanked the gun from his hand. Even the bullets

If I wanted more of the articles, I would have had to have broken out my credit card with no promise that a few more paragrpahs would reveal more evidence, so I didn't.

Go to the web site of the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle.

http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives

If you REALLY want to get to the bottom of it, contact William Benwitz. He may still be employed by the Rochester PD, so if anyone wanted to call or email to ask if he inspected the back of the primer for firing pin marks... He might respond better to a fellow policeman (if there are any attending this thread) than me, just an idle curiosity seeker.

But make no mistake, tampering with the gun has been ruled out. Malfunction of the gun has been ruled out. It WAS a series '80 with the firing pin block. The muzzle DID hit the inside of the MRI tunnel (but it is uncertain about the angle and if the discharge happened from the impact or some other instant.

Lost Sheep
Lost Sheep is online now  
Old January 12, 2013, 02:15 AM   #42
cheezhed
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2007
Posts: 283
Didn't the article state that a cartridge case was found inside the machine?
I don't think that the slide would cycle if the thumb safety was engaged so
how would the case eject?
cheezhed is offline  
Old January 12, 2013, 02:37 AM   #43
Lost Sheep
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2009
Location: Anchorage Alaska
Posts: 2,982
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheezhed
Didn't the article state that a cartridge case was found inside the machine?
I don't think that the slide would cycle if the thumb safety was engaged so
how would the case eject?
Quote:
Originally Posted by from the article linked in the O.P.
When the firearm was removed from the magnet, the gun was still in a cocked and locked position. An empty cartridge was found in the chamber.
About halfway through the article, just below the pictures of the gun as recovered from the machine.

Lost Sheep
Lost Sheep is online now  
Old January 12, 2013, 08:59 AM   #44
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 35,876
You all do know what the American Journal of Roentgenology is, don't you?

It's heavily peer reviewed and has exacting authoring standards.

I suspect that if there were anything "hinky" about it, this article wouldn't have seen the light of day, and that subsequent editions of the journal would be full of denunciations of the article and the authors.

I know what MRIs are capable of, and I have absolutely no doubt that something like what is described in this article is possible.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old January 12, 2013, 09:04 AM   #45
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 35,876
"People operate them differently. Same way people operate cars differently."

Constantine,

You don't operate an MRI outside of the designated specifications IF you want to actually use it for medical diagnostics, and IF you want accurate results.

In the early 1990s I was a reporter in a small town when the local hospital got its first MRI machine. IIRC the warm up period for that particular model was almost two hours.

If you tried using it before that, you didn't get anything that was usable, so the machine was generally powered 24x7x365 except when it was down for servicing and calibration.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old January 12, 2013, 09:09 AM   #46
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 35,876
"I spoke to an MRI tech to see if an MRI could set off a primer (through heat generated by eddy currents or by a spark caused by electrical interference of anything. He did not know the mechanism, but did say that when he was taking his training that he was told that ammunition could be set off."

You know, I was wondering about that myself, and then I totally forgot about it.

Given that a cartridge case and primer are all brass (I believe even the anvils in most primers are non-ferrous), would that even be possible?
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old January 12, 2013, 12:49 PM   #47
tipoc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2004
Location: Redwood City, Ca.
Posts: 2,347
Quote:
You all do know what the American Journal of Roentgenology is, don't you?
Being snarky always helps.

How are folks supposed to know what that is if they are not a part of the industry?

The American Journal of Rogaine? Has something to do with making hair on your noggin?


Quote:
Given that a cartridge case and primer are all brass (I believe even the anvils in most primers are non-ferrous), would that even be possible?
Well some claimed it absolutely was just a bit ago.

Wake up boy, nobody cares!

Let's see, pitchers and catchers begin Feb. 12 or the 15th.

tipoc
tipoc is offline  
Old January 12, 2013, 02:34 PM   #48
iraiam
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2012
Location: Lakewood, CO
Posts: 872
Quote:
Given that a cartridge case and primer are all brass (I believe even the anvils in most primers are non-ferrous), would that even be possible?
In this case it doesn't matter, that's not what happened

As stated in the article, it is believed that the magnetic field pulled the firing pin safety block out of the way, making the pistol NOT drop safe. This implies that the firing pin did in fact strike the primer, although the article does not specifically state that it did.

The article clearly stated that the empty cartridge case was found inside the chamber of the pistol, the slide did not move back due to the thumb safety being on.
__________________
NRA Lifetime Member Since 1999

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few public officials." George Mason

Last edited by iraiam; January 12, 2013 at 02:45 PM.
iraiam is offline  
Old January 12, 2013, 04:21 PM   #49
Lost Sheep
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2009
Location: Anchorage Alaska
Posts: 2,982
Faraday Cage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Irwin
Given that a cartridge case and primer are all brass (I believe even the anvils in most primers are non-ferrous), would that even be possible?
Electromagnetic radiations are attenuated by a "Faraday Cage". Static charges are effectively blocked, but unchanging magnetic fields (a magnetic compass still works inside a Faraday Cage) still get through and very strong magnetism gets through. If the anvil inside the primer were ferrous (or any constituent of the priming compound were magnetic), it would be affected differently than brass and possibly squeeze the priming compound to the point of detonation. But I am just speculating there.

Iraiam is probably right, but nowhere have I found that spontaneous ignition of the primer was absolutely ruled out. A firing pin indentation would prove that this discharge was accomplished that way. Lack of the indent would definitely prove a less conventional ignition.

Lost Sheep

Last edited by Lost Sheep; January 12, 2013 at 04:30 PM.
Lost Sheep is online now  
Old January 13, 2013, 10:18 PM   #50
Shadow7d
Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2010
Location: Alaska
Posts: 42
If the primer anvil was ferric
I wonder if it would be effected by a rotational/eddy current, with enough friction to set off the priming compound by spinning the anvil.
Shadow7d is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:24 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13492 seconds with 7 queries