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Old January 10, 2013, 02:32 AM   #51
MLeake
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Because family members are competent to make commitment decisions... Sorry, that plan does not pass any kind of smell test.
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Old January 10, 2013, 03:12 AM   #52
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I assume you mean by "commitment decision"............mental illness decisions? Yeah, there has to be a pro-active way to stop a disturbed person from buying a gun. This countries solutions are reactive after the fact, and by then it's a headline and a guilt trip for those relatives who could have done something. I'd rather relatives have that opportunity rather than trying to talk some sense into a disturbed individual to seek professional help. In short, I am not in favor of depending on the mental health community to have the last and only word on keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally disturbed.

Last edited by dorc-1; January 10, 2013 at 06:49 AM.
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Old January 10, 2013, 03:38 AM   #53
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Kirkpatrick - - - thank you for your post.

I don't know if youve had a chance to see this yet, but I think you'd find it very interesting. We shouldnt place blame on folks like you or anywhere else where its not justified. All the best:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZpihECO6xs
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Old January 10, 2013, 09:47 AM   #54
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Sure, that kind of thing would NEVER be abused by relatives during a family feud...
The example you want to point to would be the Jacksons.
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Old January 10, 2013, 10:16 AM   #55
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Thats excellent. I'm sure most of the mentally ill are just fine. Serious cases (meaning ones with illnesses where they could harm themselves or others) should not be permitted around firearms.


Having said that, people who exhibiting symptoms of strong mental illness, have run ins with authorities, or other wise trigger security alerts (aka the Aurora killer triggering security committees at his university on how to deal with him) should be fully investigated and given the treatment they need.

Additionally, if you're on any type of mind altering drug, you should be restricted from having firearms. A quick look at most of the recent mass shootings involve persons with strong psychotropic drugs, or just flat out crazies.
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Old January 10, 2013, 10:31 AM   #56
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Be careful with that one Z. A LOT of drugs are considered mind altering. The insomniac who takes ambien at night? Should he be prevented from having a firearm during the day? How about the allergic gal on Diphenhydramine? These are all listed SOMEWHERE as mind-altering. The problem with offering this up is that we assume reasonable application. One prosecuting attorney with a hard-on for gun control just turned every gun owner in his jurisdiction into a criminal. Alchohol, antihistimines, and thousands of other OTC or otherwise innocuous drugs can be applied to that test.
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Old January 10, 2013, 11:17 AM   #57
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Any loss of any right on a permanent or long term basis for mental condition or anything else needs to go through the judicial system with the person in question having counsel and the right to challenge such.

The conditions for rights removal should be based on empirical evidence and constitutional concerns.

Having anecdote and nonpsychiatric or psychological folks speculate on a law or condition that qualifies for rights removal is fun but not the basis of a decision.
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Old January 10, 2013, 11:26 AM   #58
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THat's a catch-22 I've always bemused myself thinking about in a chicken or the egg sort of way... if someone is unable to assist counsel, can their civil rights be taken away? How can that be possible without infringing their due process? At that point wouldn't they have to be involuntarily commited until such time as they can assist council, and if so, when they can, should the involuntary committal, which only happened because they couldn't assist their counsel, factor into the decision to remove their civil rights... because they couldn't challenge the decision to commit them... That part goes round and round for me, and would have to come down to why they couldn't assist their counsel.
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Old January 10, 2013, 04:21 PM   #59
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Doesn't work that way - perhaps Frank can clarify the legal side.

If you are mentally ill and not in your right mind, you can still have competent counsel to protect your rights.
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Old January 10, 2013, 04:41 PM   #60
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Be careful with that one Z. A LOT of drugs are considered mind altering. The insomniac who takes ambien at night? Should he be prevented from having a firearm during the day? How about the allergic gal on Diphenhydramine? These are all listed SOMEWHERE as mind-altering. The problem with offering this up is that we assume reasonable application. One prosecuting attorney with a hard-on for gun control just turned every gun owner in his jurisdiction into a criminal. Alchohol, antihistimines, and thousands of other OTC or otherwise innocuous drugs can be applied to that test.
It wouldn't be a prosecutor standard but a set standard and for serious drugs.
"Are presently or have you withint the last two years taken X class of prescription drugs?" I'm not a doctor so I don't know but I am sure there is a classification for stronger psychotropic drugs, and a database could be made of such. Its not putting you in the klink, its just saying you're potentially under the influence ala alcohol. I swear I have to affirm something like that now in Texas, but I could be wrong.
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Old January 10, 2013, 05:23 PM   #61
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They're arranged in Schedules... Schedule I is the worst highly addictive, with no recognized(by the feds) medical use... Marijuana, designer drugs, that sort... the stuff you can pretty much ONLY buy on the street.

Schedule II is the medical stuff that can be highly addictive and abused. Cocaine, Percoset, Oxycodone, and....

Just about every ADHD drug known to man. Quick research tells me 3-5% of kids are diagnosed with ADHD, and up to half of them retain it as adults.

Given the drugs' locations in the schedule- on par with cocaine, and two schedules higher than Marinol (basically THC), and the stigma attached to ADHD kids being bullied until they pull a Columbine, this is just asked all the anti's to blackball every kid who ever was diagnosed with ADHD.

Further, you now have your doctor in the mix. Take Diazepam. It's Mind altering, Schedule IV. But given some of the things it's for.. it would be good they don't have weapons... some of the other things it's for.. for example to take before the anesthesia you take for surgery..
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Old January 10, 2013, 06:05 PM   #62
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In my youth-the 1950s, not the 1850s-there was phrase "He can't help it, he's mental!". Back then it was said in jest with undertones of sarcasm, nowadays too many take it literally and see "mental illness" as an all purpose explanation that somewho excuses obnoxious, selfish, self centered and inconsiderate behavior. Cf the old "unhappy childhood" excuse. The failure of community based treatment and over reliance on a pharamacological approach
has been proven, IMHO and must be scrapped and protection of innocents and society at large must take precedent.
And I will not accept loss of 2nd Amendmnent RIGHTS on the basis of what are at best quasi-scientific criteria. As I tell some of the anti-gunners I know I am not worried about guns on the street-if I see them I take them home. I am worried about people on the street who, to quote my mother "can't spend more than 10 seconds a day thinking about anybody but themselves." And "refuse to live by society's rules." to quote Ronald George of California.
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Old January 10, 2013, 08:22 PM   #63
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If you are mentally ill and not in your right mind, you can still have competent counsel to protect your rights.
Yeah you can get all the counsel you want, but historically any judge will listen to the hospital staff in making a call whether or not you can be involuntarily committed and each state has a mandatory holding period to determine just that. Some states can forcibly make you take your medication or you face involuntary commitment. Getting each state to report this for an FBI background checks has proven to be elusive and will only face determination when presented to the Supreme Court.

To me it's amazing that people can request and get a court restraining order based on one persons word against another, but we find it untenable for a relative to submit a family members name to the FBI prohibiting fire arm purchases with a caveat for removal by another relative who assumes felony responsibility. Restraining orders are abused, but they are a necessary evil to protect those that truly need it.
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Old January 10, 2013, 08:39 PM   #64
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Restraining orders can be challenged by the restrained, without need of a relative's intervention; they are ordered by a judge, not entered by a bureaucrat; and while a temporary order may be put in place before the restrained gets his day in court, a permanent order cannot be.

Your idea flies in the face of several Amendments, and I find it abhorrent.
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Old January 10, 2013, 08:44 PM   #65
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Schedule I is the worst highly addictive, with no recognized(by the feds) medical use... Marijuana, designer drugs, that sort... the stuff you can pretty much ONLY buy on the street.
Sorry I cant help but laugh
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Old January 10, 2013, 09:18 PM   #66
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Gee, do you think many permanent restraining orders are denied when a woman says her partner has threatened to hurt her or kill her? No proof, just her word against his. It's no secret that restraining order abuse is a problem and a judge is going to lean towards the side of her safety.

I think the fact that the FBI as a bureaucrat will accept a relatives warning that a disturbed individual should not be able to purchase firearms with a caveat for removal by another relative with felony responsibility is a check and balance that could save your life is a good idea.....don't you?

Oh, I forgot.....abhorrent.
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Old January 10, 2013, 09:47 PM   #67
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Your idea does not meet any semblance of check and balance. A family member's word is all that should be necessary to deprive one of civil liberties? No witnesses, no experts, no judge, no jury... That is a recipe for severe abuse, and it is obvious that it is.

It has one merit: it is so very, very bad that I would be amazed to see anything like it in my lifetime, so at least I don't have to worry about it.

But your efforts would be better spent finding systemic improvements that do not require subversion of the Constitution, or our justice and mental health systems.

Edit: Nazi Germany actually did stuff such as what you suggest.
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Old January 10, 2013, 10:06 PM   #68
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You want a barrel of laughs? All this talk about restraining orders *against* the mentally ill, try having someone mentally ill turning the legal system on *you*. Get someone with strong borderline/narcissistic personality (eventually proven) latched onto your a** you'll find out what one human being can truly do to another in the civil, police and legal system, and to your ability to hold a job and function in society. It is said that "G*d" rested on the 7th day, a BPD sufferer won't, they are focussed and relentless.

Due process is your last defense against, having to go explain this and that in front of police or a judge and try to sort it out from the available information.

Loss of rights on a word or a whim without a chance to go before a judge? Heaven help that the US should descend into such lawlessness.

I have to remind people, on a forum about weapons for the destruction of the human body. . . . The legal system is a weapon for the destruction of human beings. You don't carelessly sweep people with the muzzle, you keep your finger off the trigger, and be very very careful with this dangerous thing.

Last edited by Battler; January 10, 2013 at 10:14 PM.
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Old January 10, 2013, 10:21 PM   #69
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I think that we may be getting a bit far afield here. My question is simple, until or if I have my Constitutional rights denied me by due process, as laid out by the Constitution, will you stand with me to ensure my 2nd Amendment rights are not stripped of me as you would stand with others?
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Old January 10, 2013, 10:23 PM   #70
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Old January 10, 2013, 10:26 PM   #71
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OP, yes.

I like to advocate that with regard to guns, we should punish the guilty instead of depriving the innocent, and that we can use existing laws to deal with those who actually create problems.

Oddly enough, that is a virtually unanimous sentiment on TFL - but some posters don't see their inherent hypocrisy when they suggest a different standard when mental health is brought into the discussion.
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Old January 10, 2013, 10:51 PM   #72
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You want a barrel of laughs? All this talk about restraining orders *against* the mentally ill, try having someone mentally ill turning the legal system on *you*. Get someone with strong borderline/narcissistic personality (eventually proven) latched onto your a** you'll find out what one human being can truly do to another in the civil, police and legal system, and to your ability to hold a job and function in society. It is said that "G*d" rested on the 7th day, a BPD sufferer won't, they are focussed and relentless.

Due process is your last defense against, having to go explain this and that in front of police or a judge and try to sort it out from the available information.

Loss of rights on a word or a whim without a chance to go before a judge? Heaven help that the US should descend into such lawlessness.

I have to remind people, on a forum about weapons for the destruction of the human body. . . . The legal system is a weapon for the destruction of human beings. You don't carelessly sweep people with the muzzle, you keep your finger off the trigger, and be very very careful with this dangerous thing.
I'm betting you and I had a similar situation. The wife's ex husband (who was a millionaire at the time) sued us 47 times. He sued schools, judges, our lawyer, his lawyer(s), and a court appointed guardian ad litem. He had a nasty habit of "appearing" at our house at times that indicated he had been watching us. A psychiatrist (his) described him, in court, as "clinically narcissistic." We know he has a vicodin addiction and doctor shops (and scams the government). The police (whom my wife had worked for earlier in her life) recommended a CHL, dogs, security systems, and 911 on speed dial. We are always armed, even now when things have quieted down.

He literally spent all his money suing us, and his son (my step son I guess although I've known him since 5) is now estranged from him.
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Old January 10, 2013, 11:00 PM   #73
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dorc-1, would you like to give an example of any other type of law that allows people to vouch for you and take "felony responsibility" for a relative?

Released on recognizance of a family member is a very different concept.

Nothing you suggest has any place in our Justice system, and the more you try to bolster your idea, the more outrageous you become.
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Old January 10, 2013, 11:01 PM   #74
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He literally spent all his money suing us,
What a twit (he is), you don't have to spend a dime causing legal mayhem. A true nut can (and in my case did) spend 24/7 learning legal tricks. Technically, lawyerlessness is an advantage when trying to cause trouble, as lawyers have limits/ethics (well, compared to clinical narcissists). A lawyer will try to coordinate a single hearing, a pro se can turn one issue into many via messing with the scheduling logistics (moving hearings, setting them right after opposing counsel declares a vacation - you have to have a hearing to move it again, etc.).

Best of luck to you and yours.
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Old January 10, 2013, 11:13 PM   #75
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historically any judge will listen to the hospital staff in making a call whether or not you can be involuntarily committed

If this is true, then why do about 55-60% of the patients on whom I file commitment petitions NOT get committed?
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