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Old January 7, 2013, 06:57 PM   #26
scrubcedar
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As someone who does know anatomy, I'm fairly sure I could could shoot anyone, with just about any reasonable pistol caliber, on purpose, five times in the "face and neck area", and leave them alive and conscious. A little adrenalin to take care of the pain, you'd still be able to run away no problem. Think about it from that end and it doesn't become about the caliber does it?
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Old January 7, 2013, 07:35 PM   #27
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Nanuk, I believe that story in "Street Survival" has been pretty well debunked over the years. The actual shooting involved an armed perp on PCP who charged at the officer's car after a traffic stop. The officer emptied a 12 gauge loaded with OO buck at the suspect. That's 45 pellets with 33 hits. He was probably dead with the first blast but his momentum carried him forward and the officer did what he should have. He kept shooting! Calibre Press either got it wrong or the story was related to them incorrectly. I used to teach officer survival in our academy and in-service sessions and I used excerpts from this book for instructional purposes.
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Old January 7, 2013, 08:19 PM   #28
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If you have been around the gun world for any amount of time at all, you will soon learn that there are no absolutes in shootings. Caliber, placement, none of it. I personally know a man who received 3 .45 kits to the head and was found wandering along a road in Texas. He certainly survived but his long term memory was affected, as well as the number of holes in his skull...nothing more. I have read accounts of people who died from a .22 round in an extremity and died "apparently" because they thought that's what a gunshot victim is supposed to do. Its all baloney, it sells guns and ammo, makes experts out of a lot of us, and creates endless conversations on the internet. I'm convinced that you and I will die at an appointed time and nothing will prevent or extend it, although I'm also convinced that many gunshot injuries make death out to be a bargain....Sandpiper
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Old January 7, 2013, 08:28 PM   #29
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Definitely A+++ for marksmanship, or maybe instinct shooting although not everyone turns into Annie Oakley at 2 yards or whatever. I guess that's why COM training is so popular. I simply must believe the .38 spl will do more damage in soft tissue. That point about punky ammo is probably right on. There's a lot of really low pressure loads in the commercial world. For what it costs, it should be righteous.
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Old January 7, 2013, 08:44 PM   #30
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I have personally dealt with humans who have blown half of their skull off with a self inflicted 12 ga, had their crainum split 50/50 with a machete, had an entrance and exit would through the head, chest or abdomen with everything from .22 to .38 to .45 to 30-06, and had their entire body crushed from the chest down in an MVA. I was able to converse with every one of them. In some cases, they were screaming and hurt like hell, other cases they didn't know they'd been hit.

I've also dealt with people who have died from bee strings and knife wounds to the bicep.

There's just no way to tell.

Stop the aggressor. It's up to him to die or not.


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Old January 7, 2013, 09:18 PM   #31
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As others have stated in various ways - - - we don't have enough info to know what happened. There is so much misreporting today, that I don't even trust that a 38 Special was used. We don't know barrel length, type of ammo, exactly where the shots went and at what angles. A snub nose J frame shooting FMJ target loads is a much different animal than a service size revolver firing premium hollow point jacketed or lead +P ammo. Especially so at 'inside your house' distances.

In any case, the woman and the gun did what was required - - - stop the bad guy from harming them.

Last edited by Pointshoot; January 7, 2013 at 09:25 PM.
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Old January 7, 2013, 09:25 PM   #32
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There was a high school kid 5 years ahead of me in school who ran into an unmarked length of rebar. It went through the middle of his forehead and out the back of his skull and 55 years later he is still alive. The human body is weird. A few years after that a small child emulating the 3 stooges on television hit his father in the temple with a toy hammer made out of hard rubber and killed him instantly. You never know what is going to punch your ticket.
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Old January 7, 2013, 10:46 PM   #33
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Yes one can get shot many places in the face and neck and not die. And lots of bullets ricochet off the skull!! My wife, being a ER, CV OR, and Trauma 1 nurse has seen many gunshots. Quite a few head shots ricochet off the skull.

So the moral of the story.. she should have had a 12 gauge.

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Old January 8, 2013, 12:02 AM   #34
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Quote:
So the moral of the story.. she should have had a 12 gauge.
Why should she have had a 12 gauge? she stopped the attack with what she had. Why does everybody have to have a body? Why should she have to live with the fact she killed a man and have to live in the house where she had to clean up his remains? Why are you so eager to have body bags filled? Is killing people a hobby of yours, do you get all excited when you hear about dead people with their brains scattered all over the place? Is that what you want your children to live with?
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Old January 8, 2013, 06:52 AM   #35
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Maybe this BD doesn't read the gun rags and doesn't know he is suppose to stop after being shot.
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Old January 8, 2013, 07:37 AM   #36
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Any firearm is better than no firearm.
The larger the caliber, the better.

The argument the 9mm, .38, .380 rounds are just as effective as .40, .44, 45, etc is silly. No, all rounds do not kill at all times.

But if you know a bad guy is coming though the door and two firearms are on the table next to you, one a .38,9mm,or .380 & the other a .40, .44, or .45, which will you grab?

But again, the weapon did the job. She and her children are safe.
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Old January 8, 2013, 07:53 AM   #37
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He was shot in the lungs, liver and stomach and is still on a ventilator.
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Old January 8, 2013, 08:08 AM   #38
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^^^ Moral of the story. Don't mess with a mother bear and her cubs, and her .38.
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Old January 8, 2013, 08:25 AM   #39
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Nanuk wrote:
Quote:
The 38 special has always been a marginal self defense round.


That cracks me up.
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I think that one of the notions common to the anti-gunner is the idea that being a victim is 'noble'; as if it is better to be noble in your suffering than disruptive in your own defense.
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Old January 8, 2013, 08:36 AM   #40
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Old January 8, 2013, 09:21 AM   #41
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Anyone, and I mean anyone, who makes decisions about the effectiveness of a cartridge based on a circumstances like this and an article with little information is on the low end of the intelligence scale. There's a big reason why so many hunters don't like head shots on big game, wounding shots are very likely. Just cause one is shot in the head, neck or both doesn't automatically mean they suffered DRT injuries. Personally in a case like this another so-called better caliber/cartridge might not have done any better. We will never know unless someone wants to be a test dummy for identical shooting with other cartridges.

But here's the important part....... Dead or not did it work? Did it stop an attack? Seems to me it worked just fine.

For those jumpimg on the cartridge debate based on this ONE case...... get a grip.
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Old January 8, 2013, 11:15 AM   #42
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Guns and bullets do wierd things.

Give you an example I was on an investigation where a guy tried to shoot himself with a 44 Mag in the chest.

Made a heck of a mess of his insides, passed through and really made a mess of the waterbed he was setting on.

He lived.

Should we say that 44 Mags aren't heavy enough to kill a person???? I think not.

I did a bit of CSI work, seen a lot of gunshot wounds, all I really gained from my experience is guns and bullets do wierd things.
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Old January 8, 2013, 01:59 PM   #43
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I'm not sure if it's been said or not, I'm still reading the thread; but as far as news articles and police reports go, and nicked ear is "a bullet wound".
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Old January 8, 2013, 02:32 PM   #44
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Post# 10

Water-Man

Quote:
You've been on this Forum for two years.
He's board, and he has a lot of time on his hands.LOL

TBS, he's busy looking for a beach gun.
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Old January 8, 2013, 02:35 PM   #45
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The skull is very resistant to damage. Bullets with a round nose profile of any caliber will often glance off the rounded surface of the skull. There are a lot of places where a round might go through someone's head or neck and not hit any vital structure.

Although I don't think it can be said that it didn't work, since I guarantee getting shot in the head five times made the guy stop doing whatever it was that made his victim shoot him in the first place.
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Old January 8, 2013, 04:17 PM   #46
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There were people within spitting distance of ground zero in Hiroshima and Nagasaki that survived the atomic blast...and big burly men who are dropped by a single shot from from a 22lr. The attack was stopped, mission accomplished.
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Old January 8, 2013, 07:41 PM   #47
Deaf Smith
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Quote:
Why does everybody have to have a body?
It's not the body Old Grump, it's the fact he, if armed, could have swapped lead with her. Orr he could have had FRIENDS.

She Winchester'ed her gun (that is emptied it) on one attacker. That is not good. One 12 gauge round would have ended him as a threat and left her with ammo (plus it takes time to shoot six shots, more than it takes to fire one 12!)

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Old January 8, 2013, 07:43 PM   #48
Mike Irwin
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Lungs, liver, and stomach...

Doesn't sound like he took 5 to the face to me...
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Old January 8, 2013, 07:50 PM   #49
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Maybe he did not. Then again, it was a crawlspace, so maybe he was on all fours and shots glanced off his head and into his torso, on trajectories toward his abdomen.
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Old January 8, 2013, 07:58 PM   #50
Mike Irwin
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And maybe space alien ghosts yanked the bullets out of his face and stuck them in his stomach and other various and sundry body parts.

Me?

I'm betting on the reporter getting the "shot 5 times in the face" from one of his sources in the police department who didn't know squat about what really happened.

Hell, I had a couple of sources like that when I was a reporter. Used them for color, but certainly not facts!
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