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Old January 5, 2013, 08:20 PM   #1
mordis
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Why do they make heavy weight hollowpoints?

This question confounds me to no end. For example most major ammo companies make 180grain hollow points in .357, and 300gr hollow points in .429. I have always read and been told that, shooting humans and anything up to deer level you want hollow points, but anything above deers requires hardcast.

Im not the only one that gets confused about this. Their are numerous threads by people wanting bear defense loads. They see 44mag hollow points in 240gr and up and think its a .44 it will be just fine for bear. Yet i keep hearing anything bigger then a deer requires hardcast for full through and through penetration.

This is becoming a issue for me now. The place i vacation has black bears and they get up to decent size. For now i have been carrying my hand loaded copy of https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=288 My ammo clocks a little slower then theirs do. Im running right around 950fps.

So for calibers like the .44 magnum(specifically) what is the truth behind the ammo? Do hollowpoints in .44 work on bears? I thought that .44mag hollowpoints were made tougher?

I would love a good education on this, im tired of guessing and wondering and not knowing the full story.

So my question is this, if hollowpoints have no place on bears, why do they continue to make heavy weight hollowpoints(and JSP for that matter) in calibers most common people feel are bear suitable?
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Old January 5, 2013, 08:24 PM   #2
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Larger animals have more flesh and fat to penetrate. If you use a hollow point it may expand and not penetrate deep enough to hit the vitals.

Most handgun caliber hollow points are for humans not animals.
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Old January 5, 2013, 08:26 PM   #3
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Why are you concerned what other people think ?

Manufacturers make what sells.
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Old January 5, 2013, 08:36 PM   #4
Super Sneaky Steve
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It depends on what you want. A heavy for caliber hollow point will penetrate deep, but hard cast will go deeper.

That ammo you have should work fine on black bears.
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Old January 5, 2013, 09:15 PM   #5
mordis
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hook and xfire, im sorry but your posts did not help. I was not talking about standard anti personel hollowpoints. I was talking about the heavy for caliber ones for .44mag and for the .357.

Why make them if they are only useable on deer and deer sized game? Deer dont require 300gr hollowpoints to kill.

I know they make what sells, but are they doing the public a diservice by not fully informing them of the capabilities of the bullets they are peddling?
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Old January 5, 2013, 09:22 PM   #6
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Can't speak as to why, ...

but when I arrived in WA state, I called the Sierra techs and inquired what is recommended for hiking / backpacking in the NW Cascades.

It was recommend that I reload using the heaviest FMJ bullet for the caliber carried, to deliver a deep penetrating and bone smashing round.

They also recommended commercial rounds that used a HARD CAST lead bullet.
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Old January 5, 2013, 09:39 PM   #7
mordis
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Jroth, that only reinforces my issue then. If hardcast is required for anything larger then deer, why make any hollowpoints in .357 and .44mag in heavy for caliber sizes?

Sadly there is no way to test these bullets out short of hunting with them.

Strangely enough, on Sierra's website, i checked there faq page. I typed in .44mag for bears and up popped a answere from stephanie saying to use there 300grain Soft point. She said to use it becuase it had a tough outer jacket and a harder lead core. 6% antimony

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Old January 5, 2013, 09:51 PM   #8
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Really. Who cares what a manufacturer makes. If you know that hollowpoints work for two legged threats, and hardcast works for anything above whitetail, then it shouldn't matter weither a manufacturer makes a heavy hollowpoint or not. Just don't buy it.
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Old January 5, 2013, 09:58 PM   #9
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The selection of bullets options is because there's a market. Enough other people choose the heavy HP to make it worthwhile for the ammo makers to produce those options. The specific "whys" are irrelevant.
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Old January 5, 2013, 10:52 PM   #10
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They make big, heavy hollowpoints because people will buy them, because they think they need them. If you want bullets for bears, get the biggest, heaviest, hottest hard cast bullets you can find. You want bullets that'll bore through large amounts of fat and muscle, and smash through big, heavy bones.

Look into Buffalo Bore ammo. Expensive, but serious. https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...oduct_list&c=6 Not for lightweight handguns though, they need to be pretty tough, like Rugers & etc.

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Old January 5, 2013, 11:20 PM   #11
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Buffalo Bore is where it's at!
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Old January 5, 2013, 11:59 PM   #12
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carbines

The heavy for caliber hollowpoints are very useful out of pistol caliber carbines. The longer tube allows fair velocities, well over what a typical handgun could generate. Launch one of those heavy .44's out of a carbine with enough twist to stabilize it, and you have a rig that hits hard.

Another arena are the long barreled single shots like the T/C', with 10-14" tubes they can likely drive the heavies hard as well.

Finally, at least some of those heavies were likely intended for the .444 Marlin, which recieved a real boost in usefulness to its fans when it received slugs in the 265 and up range.
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Old January 6, 2013, 12:10 AM   #13
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They make them because they sell.
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Old January 6, 2013, 12:18 AM   #14
481
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I've used heavy JHPs (the Hornady 300 gr XTP @ 1150fps) in my stainless Ruger 7.5" SBH for black bear (280 lbs) and it worked quite well.
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Old January 6, 2013, 12:32 AM   #15
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Whenever anyone considers using a handgun for defense against Black Bear I suggest studying the configuration of the Black Bear skull.

The Black Bear has unique features not common to other bears. One of these is a very narrow brain case and eyesockets that have next to nothing but soft tissue behind them.
A shot head on and dead center in the eye will not come near the brain case.
To hit the brain through the eye you'd have to fire from an angle.

The most direct route to the Blacky's brain is through the nose.
Due to the highly evolved sense of smell, perhaps the most sensitive in the animal kingdom, the Blacky's entire head is adapted to facilitate that sense.
His brain sits lower in the head than other bears. Theres little but soft tissue and cartilage between his nasal cavities and his brain. Those nasal cavities are huge.
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Old January 6, 2013, 09:00 AM   #16
mordis
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I understand that they will hit harder out of a .444 rilfe, but then wouldnt the same issue with them appear? Namely to much expansion and little penetration?

Im not sure why this is bothering me so much. Maybe i should load up some of these loads and go kill a bear with them..

Im trying to think like a average gun consumer. They are heading to bear country and stop in to gander mountain and say i need bullets for bears. I did this and was told to load up with Hornady LeverEvolution........ So ya, theres people out there giving advice that would likely do them no good.
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Old January 6, 2013, 09:18 AM   #17
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Because some people buy them for whatever reason.

If you don't want them, don't buy them.

Simple as that.
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Old January 6, 2013, 10:49 AM   #18
mordis
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I know if I don't want them don't get them. I want to discuss what these hunting hollow points do and what there good for. Which I think I'm understanding.

Hollow points seem to be preferred for large non dangerous game. Starting to make sense. They aren't built as solidly as a bear.
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Old January 6, 2013, 12:14 PM   #19
481
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordis:
I know if I don't want them don't get them. I want to discuss what these hunting hollow points do and what there good for. Which I think I'm understanding.

Hollow points seem to be preferred for large non dangerous game. Starting to make sense. They aren't built as solidly as a bear.
About the best I can do is tell you what I've experienced. I hunt black bear quite a bit and usually use a .30-06 loaded with a Federal 180 gr Triple Shock JHP. Putting the TSX through the shoulder of a bear destroys everything in its path (heart, lungs, etc.) and it exits 'off-side' every time leaving a 1 1/2" exit wound that passed behind the other shoulder.

Got the same results with the Hornady .44 Magnum 300 gr XTP JHP- right through the shoulder, looked like somebody loosed a blender in the bear's chest, heart and lungs were a mess, and a 1 1/2" to 2" exit wound. My stainless 7.5" SBH sends 'em buzzing along at ~1225 fps, FWIW.

Bears are tough, yes, but a properly constructed heavy .44 Magnum JHP placed where it oughtta be will do the job.
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Old January 6, 2013, 12:20 PM   #20
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Read everything written by Elmer Keith. You are not going to learn the answers to your questions on an internet forum. (you might but you're going to have to sort through an awful lot of nonsense.)
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Old January 6, 2013, 12:58 PM   #21
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Bullet choice is a personal thing. Some folks like light and fast and some like heavy and slow. Some like to see a hole with blood coming out on both sides of an animal and some like to see one big hole with lots of damage. None is completely right or wrong. The key is to find what works well for you in the specific scenario and what shoots well outta the gun in your hand. Sometimes this choice can be subjective(in one's head) and sometimes it's more objectively made. But being comfortable, confident and proficient with whatever decision one makes is paramount. Not all HPs are made the same. Those lighter in weight and made specifically for HD/SD generally expand more at slower velocities than the heavy bruisers made for hunting big game. But one manufacturers 240 gr JHP will not automatically have the same terminal performance as another. A difference of 200 fps in a .44 mag can mean large differences in expansion and whether or not the bullet holds together. While SPs are thought to hold together better and give more penetration this is not always so. Bullet construction is as important as bullet type. Because of the unlimited variables involved, there is no simple answer. I prefer SPs over HPs for shooting anything larger than varmints(two legged or four). I'm one that prefers two holes and penetration thru bone. But I made my choices mostly from my own and to a much smaller extent, the experience of others. While I use the knowledge gleaned from books, magazines and internet forums, I am not foolish to take any one opinion as gospel. I'm also not that foolish to put all my eggs in the basket of one author, regardless of how famous he is. Over the years, I have made poor choices along with the good. Again, it was my own experience, that was the proof in the pudding. There is a myriad of scenarios out there and a vast array of opinions. The reason there are so many choices in bullets is just to satisfy that diversity. I enjoy having those options and enjoy the opportunity to try something different. Many times tho, when I find something that works well, I tend to stick with it.
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Old January 6, 2013, 01:39 PM   #22
DPris
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Hardcast is not REQUIRED for larger animals, it's just a viable choice.
A strongly constructed heavy hollowpoint can both expand AND penetrate, and they're useful on animals larger than people & deer.

This doesn't have to be an obsessive "issue" to lose sleep over.
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Old January 6, 2013, 01:46 PM   #23
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the heavy hollow points like the 180gr 357 xtp and the 300gr 44 xtp give you the ability to have expansion of a lighter bullet without giving up the penatration that a lighter hollow point does.
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Old January 6, 2013, 03:10 PM   #24
Hook686
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Quote:
Why make them if they are only useable on deer and deer sized game? Deer dont require 300gr hollowpoints to kill.
You have your opinion. Manufacturers market what sells. The heavy bullet loads must sell, or they would not be on the market. I use 300 grain XTP/HP because the 'Jello shooters' list them as the best.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread....ght=.44+magnum

You can try to make logical judgements about it but it comes down to different strokes for different folks. You use what you like, I'll use what I like. Why try to make one size fits all ? Why try to make it some great intellectual analysis ?
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Old January 6, 2013, 04:15 PM   #25
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I like that they sell heavy .44 hollow points because my .44 rifle is zeroed for a 300 grain bullet. I have not gone hunting with it yet but have tested 300 grin hard cast for a bear hunt hopefully this spring and a 300 grain hollow point with no noticeable change in point of impact. So now I have two different hunting loads that do not need to be re zeroed.
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