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Old January 6, 2013, 07:39 PM   #26
SIGSHR
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Had the inhabitants of the Warsaw Ghetto been better armed the results would have been quite different. Think April 19, 1775.
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Old January 7, 2013, 11:45 AM   #27
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Had the inhabitants of the Warsaw Ghetto been better armed the results would have been quite different. Think April 19, 1775
No the result would have being the same. The German army was able to defeat the french army chase the British army out of Europe defeat the polish army not to mention the other countries they invaded. And you think some armed civilians in Warsaw could of stoped them think again.

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Old January 7, 2013, 11:52 AM   #28
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Perhaps, killing a lot more Nazis would have been a good thing for civilization.

I suppose that if Germany had the shipping to invade England and instead of turning towards Russia, you would have proposed not to fight them on the beaches. The Wehrmacht, if it could have gotten across the Channel after the Fall of France, would have gone through the UK like a knife through butter.

So why would the British bother to fight then? Give it up. The occupation goverment was already in the planning stages. Wave goodbye to your Jews also.

Why were there resistance movements in occupied countries? Useless, it would seem.
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Old January 7, 2013, 12:03 PM   #29
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I suppose that if Germany had the shipping to invade England and instead of turning towards Russia, you would have proposed not to fight them on the beaches. The Wehrmacht, if it could have gotten across the Channel after the Fall of France, would have gone through the UK like a knife through butter
Don't think so, the gun laws in the UK were not as strict at that time. The armed civilians would have stoped the German army. Remember 1775.
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Old January 7, 2013, 12:08 PM   #30
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Don't think so, the gun laws in the UK were not as strict at that time. The armed civilians would have stoped the German army. Remember 1775.
Not a chance. England was practically disarmed by that time. Tens of thousands of guns were "lent" to the UK by the US for home guard use during the war. Many of them from US civilians. Not only were they never returned they were destroyed after the war.

ETA- Just as a side note I am pretty sure the UK lost that other war.

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No the result would have being the same. The German army was able to defeat the french army chase the British army out of Europe defeat the polish army not to mention the other countries they invaded. And you think some armed civilians in Warsaw could of stoped them think again.
I find this line of reasoning even more interesting given your locale.
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Old January 7, 2013, 12:15 PM   #31
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There a hell of a lot of difference between massed conscript armies fighting in the field and surrendering in mass, especially given some of the blundering idiots that populated French and English high command in 1940 versuses a group of determined people with there back against the wall.
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Old January 7, 2013, 12:23 PM   #32
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The English would have bravely fought to the end. But they would have lost. Edward would have returned to be the Quisling King.

One cannot have it both ways - the Jews or a minority cannot defend themselves or inflict significant losses on an oppressor when significantly armed but the English without significant armor at the times or civilian arms would hold up against the Wehrmacht.

What a silly tailspin someone has gotten into.
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Old January 7, 2013, 12:28 PM   #33
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I would say England did fight it out to the end. Dunkirk is the quintessential example a fighting withdrawal under heavy air and sea assualt.

I believe the phrase used MG Sir Julian Thompson in "Retreat to Victory" was the "...the remants of the BEF retired in good order under intense enemy fire."

Which I do believe is Limey speak for "we didn't get with the bug out fever like the French did."

But there are no parallels between the initial sucess of Blitzkrieg and the Warsaw Ghetto uprising.

Hell, the Warsaw Jews weren't soldiers. No body told them that fighting would be useless and that they would loose.
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Old January 7, 2013, 12:47 PM   #34
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There a hell of a lot of difference between massed conscript armies fighting in the field and surrendering in mass, especially given some of the blundering idiots that populated French and English high command in 1940 versuses a group of determined people with there back against the wall.
Do you thing a bunch of armed civilians would have done better. PS The British Expeditionary Force were professional soldiers not conscripts.

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The English would have bravely fought to the end. But they would have lost
Exactly and no bunch of armed civilians would have made any difference.

Below are the original posts i was replying to.

Quote:
If every adult male Jew had a rifle, it wouldn't have happened."


Quote:
Had the inhabitants of the Warsaw Ghetto been better armed the results would have been quite different. Think April 19, 1775.
Any one that believes this is i am sorry just wrong.

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Old January 7, 2013, 12:47 PM   #35
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The Germans backed off a bit at Dunkirk but we are off topic.

The claim is that the RKBA is irrelevant to protecting folks from genocide.

The example chosen was the a few poorly armed Jews at the last moment did not stop the Wehrmacht.

The Jews later did defend the state of Israel without the best of weapons at its founding.

One can chose to get on the bus or the train to go to the camps without a peep. You can say it won't happen here (no one is saying that it is planned). But if it comes to that - now people know better. Given that, the RKBA is paramount to preventing planning for such a horror happening again.
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Old January 7, 2013, 12:50 PM   #36
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Your premise is wrong. Armed citizens & sworn LE officers get shot or killed all the time.
An armed off duty police officer(with over 20 years service) was killed in a ATM robbery.
No one, even a armed citizen has a absolute ability to survive a lethal force event.

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Ah, but you failed to recognize his premise: It takes a government to put the "mass" in massacre.

Individuals kill at a retail level- one here, maybe a couple there. The most prolific indvidual mass murderers in history have never killed more than Vasili Blohkin did in a single night (and he did so for 28 straight nights!

It takes a Government to kill on a wholesale level ...... first by disarming the victims, and them by systematicly killing them. Armed people with a will to resist can NOT be lined up in front of a ditch and machinegunned, marched into a gas chamber to be asphyxiated, or herded into a church to be burned alive.
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Old January 7, 2013, 12:56 PM   #37
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One can chose to get on the bus or the train to go to the camps without a peep. You can say it won't happen here (no one is saying that it is planned). But if it comes to that - now people know better.
Yet Srebenica happened. The UN said, "Put down your weapons and we'll protect you."

We knew better. They knew better. Everybody knew better, yet thousands of people were put on trucks, lined up in front of ditches, and machinegunned. More than 1/2 a Century after Babba Yar, and it's the same lesson...... everybody just fails to learn it.
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Old January 7, 2013, 01:05 PM   #38
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Exactly - you are your own last line.

Playing with words about the Warsaw ghetto is irrelevant to the core issue. The Jews weren't ready to defend themselves. Historical precedent suggests that easy genocides don't happen if the minority or target group can resist efficaciously. Can you lose the civil war - sure but that's a different game.

The claim that if a large percent of the 3.5 million Jews in Poland could reasonably defend themselves if they were prepared would not have impacted the Wehrmacht is stupid.

That's it.
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Old January 7, 2013, 01:10 PM   #39
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If the German Army had to pull Divisions off the front lines to put down an armed uprising by the Jews, who numbered several million, then yes it would have affected the German War effort. Did the Viet Cong affect the out come in SE Asia, seems so?
The other part of the question is, whose side will the Military be on? They sworn to defend and support the Constitution. We'll see.
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Old January 7, 2013, 01:18 PM   #40
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You can say it won't happen here (no one is saying that it is planned).
I have seen (online) calls for forcible "re-education" of TEA Party members .... the arrest of NRA members and violence to Wayne LaPierre ...thes last two just recently.

...NEVER underestimate the danger of large groups of stupid creatures with a herd mentality.
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Old January 7, 2013, 01:29 PM   #41
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Playing with words about the Warsaw ghetto is irrelevant to the core issue. The Jews weren't ready to defend themselves.
And if we allow ourselves to be disarmed, then we could end up like them. If we were disarmed we would have more people that believe we have no hope of resisting ..... certainly more than now .... another poster in another thread seems to think he can't win if semi-autos are banned:

The more heavily armed The People are, the less likely the elites at the top will try to massacre them, and the less likely The People are to meekly submit to same.

Do you think the Serbs would have attempted their butchery without nearly completely dominating the Yugoslavian military?
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Old January 7, 2013, 01:33 PM   #42
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It takes a government to put the "mass" in massacre.
That, sir, is QOTD material.
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Old January 7, 2013, 01:39 PM   #43
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This is a good conversation.

If national pro-2A leaders said these things, they would be ridiculed and marginalized? Is that why the real roots of the 2nd amendment are mostly discussed in circles such as TFL?
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Old January 7, 2013, 01:45 PM   #44
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The claim that if a large percent of the 3.5 million Jews in Poland could reasonably defend themselves if they were prepared would not have impacted the Wehrmacht is stupid.
I don't think anyone didn't say they would have a impact. But the polish army didn't have much impact. So why some think armed civilians would have had much impact i don't know.

Quote:
I find this line of reasoning even more interesting given your locale.
Do you really want me to go down that road. We would definitely be going of topic.

Quote:
The Jews later did defend the state of Israel without the best of weapons at its founding.
That's not comparing like with like. We were talking about the German army during ww2. Not some Arab armies. The German army would have went trough the state of Israel if it was in existence at the time for a shortcut.

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Old January 7, 2013, 02:00 PM   #45
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That, sir, is QOTD material.
Thank You. I'm glad someone thinks so. There is so much "Kool-Aid level blind faith" in government these days ...... Government is made of men, and men are inherrently flawed ..... so many people seem to think it's OK for government to do things that People should do for themselves.... it's a short step from should to can't.

Maybe Tam will award me teh Internetz..... she has so many laying around!
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Old January 7, 2013, 02:05 PM   #46
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I find it very odd for people to think that an reasonably armed and peaceful populace would just bend over and die at the hands of the Germans in WWII. Their generals were great tacticians, but they cannot defy pure numbers.
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Old January 7, 2013, 03:18 PM   #47
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I find it very odd for people to think that an reasonably armed and peaceful populace would just bend over and die at the hands of the Germans in WWII. Their generals were great tacticians, but they cannot defy pure numbers
Unfortunately history tells us that's exactly what they did do. Some didn't some fought but it did not change the outcome.
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Old January 7, 2013, 03:36 PM   #48
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manta49, it was done gradually; psychological conditioning against resisting the established order has been going on for centuries in your parts.

Of course, in your parts, the IRA only defied the British for a measly, what, 80 or more years?

So some are not quite as easily conditioned, one supposes.

Still, I find it odd that a person who hails from just across the water from an island that established the concept of an armed free yeomanry (don't want to be a serf? maintain proficiency with the longbow and respond to the call if we ever need you!) has a hard time with the concept of an armed populace.
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Old January 7, 2013, 03:50 PM   #49
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And didn't the IRA make do with an assortment of civilian weapons and captured military weapons, along with a hearty amount of what we would now call IEDs?
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Old January 7, 2013, 03:53 PM   #50
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Still, I find it odd that a person who hails from just across the water from an island that established the concept of an armed free yeomanry (don't want to be a serf? maintain proficiency with the longbow and respond to the call if we ever need you!) has a hard time with the concept of an armed populace.
I have no problem with a armed population. I just don't think that if there is some gun control in America there is some master plan the disarm the public so they can be exterminated or something similar as some seem to think.

Having said that. Would more guns here have helped the situation over the last 30 years.
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