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Old January 7, 2013, 11:06 AM   #26
MLeake
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Do the prevalence of zombie and vampire titles reflect poorly on bookstores?
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Old January 7, 2013, 11:21 AM   #27
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In the '90's, I had to endure a hard-core Amway sales pitch by a gun dealer that I decided to use for a transfer. I thought to myself "what the heck did I do to have to endure this idiot and his friends swooping down on my like vultures?" Needless to say, I never stepped back into his shop.

While this was not a matter of racism or sexism, I would be equally as turned off by that. When people go to a gun shop, they want to look at guns and talk guns. How hard is that to understand?

Regarding all the zombie stuff - it's trendy and stupid. The targets don't bother me, but I saw several AR's done in "zombie" and "skull" themes. Nothing screams "mall ninja video gamer" more than an AR with zombies anodized all over it.

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Do the prevalence of zombie and vampire titles reflect poorly on bookstores?
I am not of the opinion that this is is at all comparable to a gun store selling rifles with zombies all over them. First, real guns are nothing like books. A toy gun would be closer to a book. Second, if a book store had a section devoted to: how to make bombs, computer viruses, methamphetamine, poison, and various other types of criminal and anarchist endeavors, that would definitely reflect poorly on a bookstore that is trying to cater to most family oriented folks. Do you think Ford is going to come out with a new line of trucks depicting splattered zombie guts all over the front hood?

Last edited by Skans; January 7, 2013 at 11:43 AM.
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Old January 7, 2013, 01:28 PM   #28
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Do you think Ford is going to come out with a new line of trucks depicting splattered zombie guts all over the front hood?
THAT is a great idea! But they should bug zombies and as you drive down the road you can add real bug guts.
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Old January 7, 2013, 03:26 PM   #29
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So we defend the 2nd Amendment in many cases by making analogies to the 1st Amendment, except we don't...

I think some here are missing a key factor: Antis may use the zombie gear to ridicule gunners, but it is the serious, defense against humans gear and training aids that actually scare them.

A gun shop full of zombie targets, ammo, etc would provide smugly satisfied amusement to most of the antis I know. A gun shop full of B27s, Hostage scenario photographic targets, ammo boxes marked LE Only, and books on shooting on the move or defensive tactics against multiple assailants - now that would scare them into calling their elected officials.

So, some of you are fixating on a false threat, and suggesting that some of our own should forgo their 1st Amendment rights for our collective good... or am I missing something?
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Old January 7, 2013, 07:40 PM   #30
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So, some of you are fixating on a false threat, and suggesting that some of our own should forgo their 1st Amendment rights for our collective good... or am I missing something?
The guys in the shop I was speaking about can say whatever they want whenever they want and I wouldn't think about trying to stop them. I, however, have chosen not to do business with them because of their racism and for suggesting that "someone should rape her" when speaking about someone they don't care for. I think it's bad mojo for me to give them any of my money when there are better options out there.
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Old January 7, 2013, 08:00 PM   #31
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Joe_Pike

The guys in the shop I was speaking about can say whatever they want whenever they want and I wouldn't think about trying to stop them. I, however, have chosen not to do business with them because of their racism and for suggesting that "someone should rape her" when speaking about someone they don't care for. I think it's bad mojo for me to give them any of my money when there are better options out there...
I look at the OP as a 'non-gun issue.' Just my opinion, but I think one could find a thread like this better posted in a 'General Business' section entitled:

Please, Do Not Support Businesses That Give Customers A Bad Name
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Old January 7, 2013, 08:14 PM   #32
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I look at the OP as a 'non-gun issue.'
It is a 'non-gun issue' as you say. But, how many bicycle shops have you walked into lately and heard the employees talking about an anti-gun activist and saying that "someone should rape her"? It's incredibly tasteless and is something that would tend to cause some groups to lump all gun owners into a specific stereotype, especially since it was said in a gun shop.
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Old January 7, 2013, 08:45 PM   #33
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Joe_Pike,

I definitely agree with you that given the current "environment" we do not need any further negative publicity whatsoever. Guys you are talking about sound like genuine creeps no doubt...
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Old January 7, 2013, 10:16 PM   #34
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Stupid is as stupid does.

It happens in all kinds of stores. My wife had to practically push me out of a Wal Mart when I took on a old fart who was making racist comments. Guys who run gun stores are no different, most good, some bad.

Speaking of guns stores, there is an LGS in South Bend called Midwest Gun Exchange. Besides having everything in shooting you could want (well, okay no reloading stuff), and a helpful and courteous staff, including females, the store is kind of like going into a "Tiffany's" for firearms. Gorgeous glass cases, displays of all sorts, beautiful place.

Live well, be safe
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Old January 7, 2013, 10:21 PM   #35
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You're right to not do business with them, hope you tell them why, maybe they'll learn to keep their mouth shut while on the job.
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Old January 7, 2013, 10:43 PM   #36
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Joe Pike, I am on your side with regard to not supporting repugnant behavior. (Edit: with the caveat that I think we the people should not support such based on our individual consciences, but I do not like the government regulating "hate speech.").

My disagreement was with Skans, over the negative impact of zombie gear.
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Old January 8, 2013, 08:32 AM   #37
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But, how many bicycle shops have you walked into lately and heard the employees talking about an anti-gun activist and saying that "someone should rape her"?
How many politicians do you see trying to ban bicycles, confiscate bicycles and put bicycle shop owners out of business? Racist and sexist remarks have no place in a business - I'm not in any way justifying this. But, you do have to recognize that people get highly emotional when their elected officials depict them as "evil" and make it their life ambition to run them out of business.

Believe me, if politicians attacked bicycle shop owners with the fervor that they do to gun businesses, you would hear things just as vile and violent coming from the owners and workers of some bicycle shops.
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Old January 8, 2013, 08:37 AM   #38
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(Edit: with the caveat that I think we the people should not support such based on our individual consciences, but I do not like the government regulating "hate speech.").

My disagreement was with Skans, over the negative impact of zombie gear.
I am not advocating outlawing "zombie guns". Personally, I think zombie stuff is trendy, comic-bookish, and childish. I simply don't like the stuff and it turns me off. I have a hard time taking any gun retailer seriously that caters to this. But, that doesn't mean I want zombie stuff banned from gun shows (the only place I really see quantities of this stuff) any more than I want the beef-jerky guy banned from gun shows.
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Old January 8, 2013, 10:27 AM   #39
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And I reiterate, childish and tacky zombie stuff will get some antis to look down their noses at us and laugh. So what? They don't, already?

It's kind of like movies and literature: Freddy, Jason, Dracula, and Frankenstein are entertainingly scary because they are not real. Alpha Dog was terrifying and saddening because it was real. Which is more disturbing, to a thinking human?

So, the very things we need, as mature adults who wish to learn self defense skills, are the things that will trip out the antis. The zombie stuff is a footnote. Don't have to like it, but I would not sweat it.

I will go one further, and say that antis have been amused by my shot-up Zombie Osama target, but have not liked my hostage-taker-with-gun-to-woman's-head targets at all. (I have an anti or two in the family.)
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Old January 8, 2013, 11:37 AM   #40
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And I reiterate, childish and tacky zombie stuff will get some antis to look down their noses at us and laugh. So what?
I don't care what the antis think about zombie guns. I'm talking about me personally - I get turned off by it. If I see a dealer selling a bunch of zombie stuff - that makes me not interested in the kind of stuff they sell. When I see someone with some zombie-themed AR, zombie grips, etc. it screams "GAMER". It says (to me) " I bought this zombie-pimp-killing machine because I use the same thing when I dominate at Zombie Apocalypse...."

The bottom line is that I'm prejudiced against gamers who get into firearms just because of their video gaming. And, I see Zombie Guns as an extension of video gamers who like to live in their fantasy realms. In my "fantasy world", Gamers would remain glued to their chairs in their mom's basement playing video games and never even think about doing something real like buying and shooting guns. My perception is that many gamers can't separate fantasy from reality. My prejudice (and I'm entitled to my prejudices) has nothing to do with what antis think.

Last edited by Skans; January 8, 2013 at 11:42 AM.
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Old January 8, 2013, 12:09 PM   #41
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We see this very, very differently.

At the big picture level, since the vast majority of our younger generations are gamers, then if we want the numbers we need to preserve our rights, we need to attract and embrace gamers, too.

That does not mean we should not try to ensure they use firearms in a safe manner at the range, or that we can't help educate them about firearms in the real world. It does mean an open mind is a useful thing. (A generation ago, women's shooting groups were rare, and gay shooting groups were unheard of; appealing to more groups has helped us roll back the antis, since, no?)

At the personal level, I was a gamer back in the days before the internet. D&D, Traveller, you name it, I probably played or refereed it. So did most of my friends. We all became losers, of course... I ended up one of those useless Naval Aviators, and stayed in the basement when not shooting, hitting the dojo, SCUBA diving, skiing, riding motorcycles, sailing... oh, wait, I guess I wasn't a basement dwelling troglodyte.

My gamer friends from high school and college went off to such loser schools as Duke, CalTech, Wake Forest... one or two started up successful small businesses. Another is a professor at South Carolina.

Stereotypes to the contrary, studies have shown that gamers tend to excel at thinking outside the box, adapting to changing technology, and multi-tasking.

So I can see where you would not want any of those guys...
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Old January 8, 2013, 01:13 PM   #42
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James Holmes - "He is said to have had few friends and barely any social life, instead spending hours indoors playing the video game Guitar Hero."

Adam Lanza "According to a new report, the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooter locked himself up in his basement for ‘hours on end’ to play violent video games."

Eric Harris "created a private website on America Online. Harris initially created the site to host gaming levels of the video game Doom, which he and his friend, Dylan Klebold, had created, primarily for friends. On this site, Harris began a blog, which included jokes and short journal entries with thoughts on parents, school, and friends. By the end of the year, the site contained instructions on how to cause mischief, as well as instructions on how to make explosives, and blogs in which he described the trouble he and Klebold were causing."

How far do you want to take this? Maybe you are ok with the face of "The Joker" anodized onto an AR. Or, perhaps we should shut up and not worry about an AK with pictures of dead children painted on the stock? It's just freedom of expression, right? No different than zombies, X-men, or Ninja Turtles on guns, right?

MLeak - you and I do see it differently. I see a connection between video games and violence, in some individuals. I like guns, but they are no joke to me. Turning guns into comic-bookish looking instruments is stupid, childish, and does not help our image any with gun folks and non-gun folks (who can be converted into antis). Sometimes being a "gun snob" and making it known that you look down on gaming-obsessed, zombie-AR-toting jokers is appropriate.
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Old January 8, 2013, 01:37 PM   #43
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I am not a fan of pink firearms, nor of Hello Kitty rifles, yet those have brought new shooters into the fold, so I am hardly going to discontinue doing business with a store because it stocks them. It would be counter-productive.

For every disaffected loner killer you want to name, I could probably find a charismatic Ted Bundy or Charles Manson. You are buying into stereotypes too much.

If I stopped doing business with every store that carries something that I find ridiculous, I would have a very hard time shopping. For instance, I would have to stop going to gun shops that stock various iterations of the Judge... And, stupid though I find them, the Judge variants have attracted a bunch of new shooters.

Again, if Deagle shooting gamerboiz offend you, then take one or two under your wing and educate them. Your current approach is, in my opinion, self-defeating.
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Old January 8, 2013, 08:16 PM   #44
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And I reiterate, childish and tacky zombie stuff will get some antis to look down their noses at us and laugh. So what?
Antis are already against us regardless of they image we portray. Its the damage that a negative image does to those that are presently neutral to our cause that is the concern. Any thing that makes gun owners in general look irresponsible and foolish is not helping our cause.

Quote:
You are buying into stereotypes too much.

But that's what folks do. Antis stereotype ARs as weapons of mass destruction. Many pro-gun folks stereotype antis as idiots. Some folks think all gamers are losers. While all can be correct, none are correct all the time, but folks still think that way. Adding fuel to a negative stereotype does nuttin' to help our image if we want to portray ourselves as responsible gun owners. Only way to defeat a negative image is to always display a positive one. While it may not change the minds of zealots, it may draw someone still undecided to our side. Those that are fairly neutral to guns are in the Majority. They are the ones that get swayed by Media blitzes after mass shootings. Not the hard core antis or pro gun folks. They are the folks that may or may not take away our guns in the future.
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Old January 8, 2013, 08:42 PM   #45
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And I will reiterate: zombies and vampires are the current rage among the teen through 30 set. (Heard of Twilight? Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter? ZombieLand?).

As far as the game aspect, note the outrage Wayne LaPierre created when he suggested that video games should be blamed for violent behavior, and regulated. Some of those who were very vocally upset over this were younger TFL members, at least a couple of whom are now anti-NRA.

If you want to win over undecideds, then acting in a judgemental manner toward their chosen entertainment forms seems an odd way to go about it.
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Old January 8, 2013, 08:44 PM   #46
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I have a xBox but am not a gamer by any means, and I was sort of put of by LaPierre's demonization of violent shoot 'em ups, but the more I read of that coward and the half full mags dumped all over the school, the more I think he has a point.


Then again, banning violent video games would be the same slippery anti-Constitutional step as banning semi-automatic rifles.
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Old January 8, 2013, 08:49 PM   #47
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I am not a fan of the GTA games and their like, nor the Saw genre of movies, and I think LaPierre had a point. However, I also agree with you about the slippery slope argument.

Not to mention that studies have not shown positive correlation between violent video games and violent behavior, in much the same way that studies have not shown a correlation between adult entertainment and sexual assault.
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Old January 8, 2013, 08:58 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by MLeake
Not to mention that studies have not shown positive correlation between violent video games and violent behavior, in much the same way that studies have not shown a correlation between adult entertainment and sexual assault.
True. And Glenn has weighed in with very good evidence about how violent video games aren't to blame as well, however, what gets me is that dumping half full mags is something "gamers" do, often in thier games. The game mechanics are such that half full mags get magically refilled from your aviable ammo stash and allow you to do "tacitcal reloads" without wasting ammo. That was just very striking to me for some reason.

That being said, and to veer back to topic, I think the gamer segment of America and the gun owning segment could learn alot from this and try to spread the word about how we aren't all mass killers.

And part of that would be buy avoiding gun shops, like the OP described.

My LGS* is run by an old Southern gentleman and his family. With the exceptiong of his wife, who is a bit ornery to everybody, and the pretty granddaughters who work the registers*, he is as friendly and kind to me and Pop, who have shopped there for a combined fifty odd years as to a first time customer regardless of race. That is the image we need to project.

* He also stocks the Zombie Hunter stuff. Interestingly enough, I saw him recommend it to somebody eafter the panic buying because he was out of .223 hunting ammo.

*That may just be because they didn't like my akward middle school boy attempts at flirting.
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Old January 8, 2013, 09:36 PM   #49
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Son of Sam- "I'm a born again Christian"
Charles Manson was known to frequently quote the Bible.
Jim Jones, a Reverend.

Since some nutjobs abused the Bible, I should be prejudiced against someone ready and willing to accept Christ? That's what I hear when you say gamers should stay away from guns, just because some nutjob killers were gamers.

Maybe you are ok with the face of "The Joker" anodized onto an AR. Or, perhaps we should shut up and not worry about an AK with pictures of dead children painted on the stock? It's just freedom of expression, right? No different than zombies, X-men, or Ninja Turtles on guns, right?

Yes, yes, yes and correct. It's definitely not my taste, but I'm not going to get my britches bunched over whatever's etched into a rifle stock.

I have Goya's "Saturn Devouring His Son" in my office- a ghastly depiction of a vicious and violent event.
I like gory horror & zombie flicks.
I played the hell out of some Mortal Kombat as a kid.
But even though I'm a teacher, a father, borderline pacifist, a safety nut, and devout Christian, maybe I should stay on my couch and avoid guns, for my love of violent art & games.

I only look down on gun owners who refuse to learn to handle them safely.
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Old January 8, 2013, 10:30 PM   #50
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In the case of zombie gear, we might just need to open a can of "Lighten up, Francis."
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I've heard the same argument made in defense of racist or sexist jokes.

Zombie items are not in the same plane as being racist/sexist. We all know that the whole Zombie thing is fiction and is mostly for fun and marketing.

Racism and sexism are serious. No comparison there really. If you don't like the Zombie stuff, don't buy them and don't watch any of it on tv/movies.

IMO whatever stimulates the gun culture and draws more people into the shooting sports is ok in my book. If you're not into it, then that is your choice.
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