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Old December 9, 2012, 10:09 AM   #1
Z400ACDC
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"1 MOA, all day long"

What do you think when you hear or read this type of statement? I think most factory hunting rifles can't do it on average. There are so many variables that can ruin a range day with your rifle.
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Old December 9, 2012, 10:29 AM   #2
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I have shot quite a few factory rifles that are easily 1MOA, but I have shot even more that are not. I have spent days breaking a rifle in and it still group horribly. I also have had luck with a very few out of the box.... Handloads and great match ammo are the difference in most though.
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Old December 9, 2012, 10:39 AM   #3
sirgilligan
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I believe there are some that can do it, but eventually there will be some external force exert its influence and move the bullet.

If 1 MOA at 100 yards is roughly 1" and 1 MOA at 200 yards is 2", then 1 MOA at 50 yards is 0.5" and at 25 yards 0.25". At an indoor range with a good setup one could image that you could put them all in one hole easier than a 1" group at 100 yards.
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Old December 9, 2012, 10:40 AM   #4
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Depends on who says it and about which rifle.

If is a typical hunter with a .308 or .30-06, was else is he lying about is what I think. Same with an M4gery.

If it is a skilled marksman talking about something he built or bought for a specific task, then I may perk up and see what is actually being said. Over 200 rounds and 40 degree temp swing with no shift in POA/POI with excellent accuracy...or something else?

I have a variety of rifles and my best loads in my .30-06 never got me better than 1MOA for 5 shots. A match .308 and .223 Kregier, yes I can stay under 1MOA most of the time on most days. But, my .338-06 (Weatherby Ultralight) shot a 3/8" 5 shot 100 yard group for its first group and continues to be a freak to this day. It is simply amazing, especially for an Ultralight.
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Old December 9, 2012, 10:54 AM   #5
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Whenever I hear it at the range I shoot, I typically stop listening to the speaker right then and there because what usually follows is a 2 shot group...

I also hear, "This gun can't group worth a dang!". Again, it is typically shooter error, or the shooter hasn't tried a different type of ammo. From what I see, it is not usually the rifle that cannot shoot MOA, but the shooter.


I have found ammo that each of my rifles likes well enough to shoot MOA at 100 yards. My .223 AR 16" M4gery won't hold that out to 200 yards, but it stays close to 3" which is just fine for me. My new AR upper (18" match barrel) will hold MOA out to 300 yards (as far as I have pushed it). My .270 WSM will hold MOA out to 300 yards and my .308 shoots MOA out to 500 yards (haven't shot it further than that).

Even with that, I let someone shoot my .308 at 100 yards and they shot two groups of greater than 2.5" and were immediately bashing my rifle
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Old December 9, 2012, 11:30 AM   #6
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Individual mass produced bolt action rifles can often be very accurate. Finding the right load is usually the secret. Assuming a good trigger pull, properly fitting stock, a good scope in properly tightened mounts and rings, shooting off a solid shooting rest. Its usually possible to get most any bolt action center fire rifle to shoot a sub-2 MOA group. I consider 1.5 MOA my own personal minimum hunting standard, its usually not hard to find a load that will achieve that.

I've seen the least expensive old Remington, Winchesters, etc shoot sub-MOA groups. Its amazing what handloading can do. Often times one half grain of powder is the difference between sub-MOA and 1.25 MOA. Conversely there are rifles that one could try ten different powder, projectile combinations and never break 1.75 MOA.


Then there is natural loss of accuracy as the barrel wears. For example I had a custom built .270 that would make one 1/2"-3/4" 10 shot hole at 100 yards when it was new. However after less than 2000 rounds it started losing accuracy and opening up those groups.


Now then, in terms of reality and the average shooter. If someone claims there old beat up rifle will shoot sub-MOA groups with factory ammo, while they are leaning across their truck hood and using a rolled up jacket for a rest. Well, lets just say I'd have to see it, to really believe it.

tl;dr a lot of it has to do with the skill and knowledge of the owner, but yeah, some mass produced rifles will shoot sub-MOA.
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Old December 9, 2012, 11:53 AM   #7
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First off this is not a plug for Savage rifles -ok. They are the only rifle i buy so they are the only ones i can comment on. I have never shot a new rifle that has not done MOA,most do better. I think most modern rifles will achive that with ease right out of the box it is not a Savage thing. Who is shooting and if they are using a rest is the big factor. Most people i see at the range can not hold a rifle free hand good enough to achive MOA no matter what rifle they are shooting. Ammo and barrels have come so far in a short period of time that IMHO it is the shooter that can not do MOA not the rifle .
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Old December 9, 2012, 01:36 PM   #8
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From the benchrest, handloads, not in a hurry for five-shot groups and some time between shooting groups, I've had a fair number of sub-MOA rifles over a good many years. Some minor tweaking on some; nothing changed on others:

Sako Forester 19" carbine, .243. Since 1970. 5/8 to 3/4 MOA
Weatherby Mark V 26" '06'. Since 1970. Mostly 7/8 MOA
Ruger 77 HB .220 Swift. Back during the 1970s. 3/8 MOA
Ruger 77 Mk II 22" light sporter, .223. Since 1997. 1/2 MOA
Bushmaster Match Target, .223. During late 1990s. 1/2 MOA
Remington 700 Ti 22", 7mm08. Since about a year after they first came on the market. 0.8 MOA

Back in 1950 when I was a youngun and had good eyes, I built a 1917 Enfield sporter which was mostly one MOA with a Weaver K2.5. Dayton-Traister trigger, Bishop stock. In those days, hunting rifles that shot one MOA were considered pretty darned good.
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Old December 9, 2012, 01:46 PM   #9
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I agree with Art, if I group a rifle it is either securely rested on bags, or locked into my rest/rifle vise. I have a lot more picky about rifle selection and features (such as free floating, twist, and such). If a rifle isn't up to par as far as grouping after being broken in, I usually find it a new home. I don't hunt anymore, so accuracy on paper is a pretty big deal to me.
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Old December 9, 2012, 02:12 PM   #10
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I never walked up to a carcass and said "good group" lol

I usually discount most claims, depending on the person though.
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Old December 9, 2012, 04:41 PM   #11
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Yes I have two rifles that will shoot sub MOA 5 round groups all day long. The .308 will hold .5 MOA out to 400.

I also have rifles that despite the best ammo I try will never do better than 1.5.
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Old December 9, 2012, 05:04 PM   #12
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I agree with many of the above replies; most quality recently (last 10-15 years) made bolt guns are 1MOA guns (inherent accuracy). I'd also say that many free floated ARs are 1MOA guns, with the right ammo of course.

The thing that keeps most people from ever seeing that on the target is shooter error. The other reason I think a lot of shooters never see it is the optics that they select (or don't select...). On a bench/rest with match ammo that the rifle likes I think a lot of guys would be surprised what their rifle is actually capable of in the right hands.
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Old December 9, 2012, 05:05 PM   #13
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Quote:
Yes I have two rifles that will shoot sub MOA 5 round groups all day long. The .308 will hold .5 MOA out to 400.

I also have rifles that despite the best ammo I try will never do better than 1.5.
But, what do you think when someones else says it?
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Old December 9, 2012, 05:30 PM   #14
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455, how many rounds do you call "All Day Long"? The law of averages will sneak up on you at some point.
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Old December 9, 2012, 05:42 PM   #15
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z400ACDC
What do you think when you hear or read this type of statement? I think most factory hunting rifles can't do it on average. There are so many variables that can ruin a range day with your rifle.
I think quite the opposite, actually. It's a rather "Ho Hum" kind of thing.

1 MOA is pretty easy to do. I don't take the "all day" part to be literal. Who shoots all day? It means the rifle will do it pretty much all the time. It also doesn't mean that it will never not do it, it means that it will do it the vast majority of the time.

I don't have a vast collection but I do load for 5 different rifles and a 15" Encore handgun and they will all do 1" at 100 yards. It's tougher with the Encore but it's quite doable.

I load for a Ruger M77 MkII in .204 and a Remington 700 in 22-250, you'd have to sneeze or something to make either one shoot 1" at 100. Their bad groups are barely over 1/2".
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Old December 9, 2012, 06:59 PM   #16
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Lots of rifles that will shoot 3 rounds into 1 MOA everytime unless the shooter fouls up. Less that will do it with 5 shots but there are quite a few that will. When I hear, or read the phrase "1 MOA, all day long" I don't take it literally, and I don't think the person who said it meant it to be taken literally. I'm not easily offended and understand what is meant by the comment.

I have several rifles that will shoot MOA or better every time as long as I don't mess up. But if I mess up that is not the fault of the rifle, it will only put them where I point it. There is a difference between "this rifle will shoot MOA, all day long" and "I can shoot MOA, all day long".
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Old December 9, 2012, 07:36 PM   #17
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The only rifle I have that actually WILL do 1 MOA is my 6.8 AR from Bison Armory.....

If I do my part, with handloads.

Factory loads. ...... Fughetaboutit



My 24/47 gets close some days with handloads, but closer to 2MOA on most

I bedded the action, and added a scope
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Old December 9, 2012, 08:40 PM   #18
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I only have one rifle that can shoot 1MOA all day long. It is a 1934 Mossberg model 10 single shot bolt action .22. I have had to retire it because the trigger has worn down to about 1/2 ounce of pull but it has been an absolute tack driver when I do my part. I would love to find a replacement trigger or have one made, but it is not a priority right now. the rifle was only manufactured for 3 or 4 years so there are not a lot of donor parts available. I have a lot of other rifles that are accurate, but I will still get an occasional flyer or I will pull a shot. I don't worry about MOA accuracy too much. I compete against myself hoping that my groups shrink with practice.
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Old December 9, 2012, 08:57 PM   #19
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Early this year, I returned my FNH FNAR .308 Win to the factory because it would not shoot 1 MOA. I could barely get it to shoot 2 MOA and it typically would come in around 2.5 MOA (I consider 5 shot groups the minimum for checking accuracy).

FNH put a new barrel on my rifle, shot a 3 shot group just under 1 MOA, and sent the target and rifle back to me. I'm currently working up hand loads for it. However, it does appear to like Black Hills 175gr Match ammo. Not sure if it will do it all day long. I only had 5 rounds left in the box when I tried it....but it sure was promising, that is for sure!

I have a Savage 10 FCP HS and a Rem 788 .223. Both will shoot 1 MOA with most anything....and less than .5 MOA with my hand loads. I have other rifles that won't do anything like this. It is what it is.
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Old December 9, 2012, 09:06 PM   #20
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For one of these "all day long" people, I would stick around to see the first 50. I think 50 rounds into 1 MOA at 100 yards is a pretty good shooter. Please post your targets!

50 is conservative, but I'm thinking only a couple of the 1000's of .5-.8"@100 factory rifles will do that off a best quality rest.
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Old December 9, 2012, 09:14 PM   #21
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Since this post was in the semi-auto rifle forum, was the 1MOA all day specific to just autoloaders....or did it include bolt guns? I noticed some comments were about bolt guns.
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Old December 9, 2012, 09:37 PM   #22
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I love the folks that show me a 3 shot target (their best of course) and try to convince me that their gun is all that and a bag of chips too. Just because it will do that at 100 yards does not mean it will hold at 200, 300, or farther out. I've seen .8 MOA at 100 yards go to 2 or more MOA at 200 when fired from a sled due to one or more variables.

My Rem 700 can drop all three touching at 100 yards; did it firing with a tree branch as my rest dialing in my scope. I doubt many people could do it for 10 rounds though.....it is after all a 375 RUM.

OTOH. with the right ammo, one of my 10/22's can make sub MOA at 100 yards consistently. My last build...I haven't shot enough ammo types through it to find the "golden bullet(s)" yet.
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Old December 9, 2012, 10:35 PM   #23
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I often hear if it's not a five shot group it's just a string .

What if your gun only holds 4 rounds ? is a 4 shot group good enough ?

What about those guns that only hold 3 rounds or even 1 do you just keep loading till you hit five ?

How long do you get to shoot this group ?

Can you let the barrel cool a bit then finish . i.e. shoot 3 let it cool down a little then shoot the last 2 .

I alway thought you must shoot them all in a row . Maybe not fast but lets say 5 shots in 20 to 25 sec for it to count as a group .

I also don't think it's fare to ask a gun to do something it was never designed to do . A light weight sporter barrel was not designed to shoot 5 shoots rather quickly . As the barrel heats up the 4th and 5th shots are bound to open up a bit .

These target here tell me my ruger American is a sub MOA rifle . Who says yes and why , who says no and why . They were shot on different days at different times with different lot # ammo . Total time for all three shot , no more then 30 sec



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Old December 9, 2012, 10:42 PM   #24
Z400ACDC
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Arizona, bolt rifles are included.

Nathan, I here ya!!!
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Old December 9, 2012, 10:55 PM   #25
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When I shoot for groups out of my sporter weight 700 ADL, I've got 2 minutes *at least* between each shot to allow the gun to "settle" again to the same conditions as I shot it in the first shot. More like 3-5 mins. I did shoot one group in as quick succession as I could accurately and and it was sub MOA for 3 shots but the last two started to open up. Like was said, I don't expect a sporter weight to be able to hold A tight group when shot in quick succession. It's not what it was built for. Further more, where that first cold bore shot goes is what is most critical to me, as this is a hunting rifle.
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