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Old January 3, 2013, 10:34 AM   #1
kraigwy
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ML Primers

Since I'm always looking for something else I don't need or have any use for I decided to get an inline Muzzle Loader.

I don't have much experience with Muzzle Loaders and didn't find out they didn't use normal precussion caps until I ordered my TC rifle.

They talk about 209 primers. I have tons of shotgun primers, are 209 Shotgun primers the same or are ML 209s different.

Also I decided to cast my own minnie ball bullets instead of buying those high price, near a dollar a piece for those sabot or store bought ML bullets.

Is there something I need to know? What if I use my shotgun primers? How do cast minnie balls work in these inline ML rifles?
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Old January 3, 2013, 10:41 AM   #2
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I can't help you with the minnie ball in an inline. Try it out and let us know. What is the twist rate on the barrel? I'm sure its fast. But yes you can use your shotgun 209's on that inline. I do and they ignite pyrodex just fine. And if I'm not mistaken Blackhorn 209 says not to use a ML specific 209 primer with their powder. A ML 209 is just a tad hotter than a shotgun 209 but I really can't tell the difference in the two of them other than the price
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Old January 3, 2013, 10:48 AM   #3
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Probably a 1 in 48 twist.

I've tried balls in mine and can't get the accuracy I wanted with them, but I found that using the Buffalo Ball-ets, with a reduced powder load, works very well, and they are not nearly as expensive as the saboted rounds, for practice.

I cut my powder from 110 grains, down to 85 grains, before they quit tumbling
and started to group well, but you will have to play with yours to know what load to shoot.

I tried hunting with them one year, and did not like them as well as a saboted bullet for hunting, but they are fine for some fun hunting cans.
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Old January 3, 2013, 11:10 AM   #4
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If you're spending a buck apiece for saboted bullets you're getting ripped off. Buy the sabots by the hundred for around eight bucks and Hornady XTP bullets for around twenty bucks a hundred. Costs about twenty-eight cents a shot that way and they shoot great out of most muzzle loaders. Also, they perform superbly on game animals. You're paying a premium to have someone package them together for you.
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Old January 3, 2013, 11:39 AM   #5
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NoSecondBest:

Thanks for the info. I haven't bought anything yet (except ordered the rifle and bullet mold). 8 bucks per hundred seems reasonable.

It is 1:48. I really have no idea what I'm gonna do with the rifle besides poke holes in paper and shoot some gongs.

If I learned to shoot it, I might try it on deer next fall. Normal deer hunting with rifles is getting boring. If I can get it to shoot, I might even try prairie dogs.

Might try to build some shot rounds for it and try some rabbit hunting, but I don't know if that's possible.
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Old January 3, 2013, 12:19 PM   #6
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I too refuse to use the high priced spread

Quote:
They talk about 209 primers. I have tons of shotgun primers, are 209 Shotgun primers the same or are ML 209s different.
They are all basically the same except for the potency or flash. Your shotgun primers will work fine, for now but you might want to experiment with different brands, later. ..

You are going to have faster twist and while that's fine if you want to use you minnies. I have never done this but don't see a problem. ...

Instead, might I suggest, casting and using a pistol bullet and sabot combination, like a .44/50 or a .45/50. ....

I'm Cheap and;
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Old January 3, 2013, 12:41 PM   #7
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Which TC rifle did you order? I've owned several from side locks to in-lines. All are pretty well made and accurate. I've been using a Savage ML2 for the last several years and have gone "smokeless". Can't do that with my TC's but the only real advantage to the Savage is it just requires a lot less cleaning. Both shoot about the same.
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Old January 3, 2013, 01:06 PM   #8
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I got the TC Omega Z5, not because I know anything about it, I just got a wild hair when reading the Sportsman's Guide Web Site.

Wasn't really looking to buy one, just did.

I do like the ideal of buying sabots and loading my 44 cast bullets.
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Old January 3, 2013, 01:23 PM   #9
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Not really a bad way to go !!

Quote:
I do like the ideal of buying sabots and loading my 44 cast bullets.
That is pretty much what I have settled on, for my In-Line hunter and have shot these in the Omega. We are talking about a 230 or 240 pistol alloy bullet. There may be better out there and there sure are plenty to choose from. But I'm comfortable with this from the range, to the field. All I have to do, is vary the powder charge. ...

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Old January 3, 2013, 02:15 PM   #10
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Quote:
A ML 209 is just a tad hotter than a shotgun 209 but I really can't tell the difference in the two of them other than the price
Incorrect. ML 209 primers are not as hot as standard 209 primers. The theory is that Standard 209 primers can blow through BP and some equivalents (especially pelletized ones like 777 pellets or pyrodex pellets) and start the ball/bullet/sabot forward before the main charge really gets burning. This can cause a similar effect to not quite seating the ball/bullet onto the powder properly. I also find that using ML 209 primers leaves less of a crud ring at the breech when shooting 777 or pyrodex pellets. Even leaves less of a crud ring with loose BP and sub powders. Probably because they aren't as hot. BH209 needs hotter primers.
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Old January 3, 2013, 02:49 PM   #11
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Oh ok I had it backwards. I still can't tell the difference in shot groups. I haven't shot pellets out of my buckstalker since the first and only box of them I bought was gone. I shoot regular pyro and reg 209 primers. Have you tried using blackhorn with a ML specific primer?
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Old January 3, 2013, 02:50 PM   #12
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tc omega uses a 1:28 twist.

TC's are also not known to shoot conicals well due to misaligned QLA's at the end of the barrel, so sabots will be the way to go with that rifle.
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Old January 3, 2013, 04:14 PM   #13
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deerslayer303

Quote:
I shoot regular pyro and reg 209 primers. Have you tried using blackhorn with a ML specific primer?
I've never used blackhorn powder. My current load is 777 primers with 100gr volume of Goex Pinnacle in a T/C Impact.
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Old January 3, 2013, 04:22 PM   #14
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Quote:
tc omega uses a 1:28 twist.
This is what I was thinking as well. And most of today's inlines have a faster twist rate then 1:48.

Quote:
It is 1:48.
kraigwy, for clarification... did you mean your inline was 1:28 instead of 1:48?
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Old January 3, 2013, 04:46 PM   #15
kraigwy
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Yeah I screwed up, its a 1:28 twist.
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Old January 3, 2013, 06:51 PM   #16
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As NoSecondBest and my good friend Pahoo suggested,buying the .44/50 or .45/50 bullets and sabots by bulk will save you plenty.

FWIW, I have not been able to get the accuracy out my T/C Encore(same bbl as the Omega) with full size conicals using various charges as I've been able to get out of sabot rounds. But all rifles are different as I can get very good consistant accuracy out of the full conicals out of my Rem. and CVA. As well as okay accuracy(as in good deer hunting accuracy) out of the Knight.

But the Knight does best with sabot rounds too.

Have fun investigating what your rifle likes the best.
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Old January 3, 2013, 07:11 PM   #17
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noelf2

... is correct. It was discovered some time ago, the "shotgun" 209's were a tad too hot. I know for sure the T7 209's are toned down a bit.

Nothing wrong with casting some lead to save $$$ It might take a bit of experimentation though to get it right.

With the T/C, you're going to want the OD of the bullet/sabot (measured at the petals) to be around .505 Thus, your bullet needs to be .451 or .452 T/C's like a fairly tight bullet/sabot combo.

Shoot 'em up and good luck!

Birch
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Old January 3, 2013, 09:26 PM   #18
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Quote:
T/C's like a fairly tight bullet/sabot combo.
I'm thinking you're right BirchOrr.

The reason I can't get the very easy loading PowerBelts to fly very well out of my TC.
Haven't tried to do it but if I were going to cast conicals for my TC, I'd probably cast an all lead, well lubed oversized projectile.

Course, there are a few that have posted here on TFL that their TC's shoot PowerBelts and other full size conicals well. Again, gotta figure out what each rifle likes, eh.
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Old January 3, 2013, 10:04 PM   #19
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Normally I shoot Rd ball. But occasionally I do sabot for a change up. Here's a Link to a business I've purchased from in the past many times. Pretty interesting reading if you have the time to bump around in their site. Good products, nice folks, great prices. www.prbullet.com/pts.htm Check it out. Only sabot and bullet combo I buy period. Once you try these Dead Center Bullet sabot's. Like me you won't consider anything else there after.
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Old January 3, 2013, 11:16 PM   #20
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I have heard that the muzzleloading specific 209 primers are more flame and less explosion or something like that. Black powder wants to be lit on fire, not detonated.
However, I have never used muzzle loading 209s in my BP shotshells and regular 209s work just fine in those. It's splitting hairs mostly and maybe an excuse to price gouge because the box of primers has a picture of a muzzleloader on it.

It's like motor oil, put a picture of a motorcycle on the label and the price doubles.
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Old January 4, 2013, 09:03 AM   #21
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Be careful!

Quote:
I were going to cast conicals for my TC, I'd probably cast an all lead, well lubed oversized projectile.
There is a heck of a difference between loading a tight sabot and loading an over-sized ball, or Minie style projectile. I tried a Hornady FPB which is a copper jacketed "no skirt" Minie style projectile. They looked cool and worth trying. They mic out at .507 at the base. It was "hernia class" hard to load in the T/C. Might be much better in a different gun.

Birch
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Old January 4, 2013, 09:27 AM   #22
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Quote:
I got the TC Omega Z5
I had one of those before I upgraded to an Encore. Fantastic shooter. It loved 100 grn of loose 777 powder pushing a 250grn Hornady SST with the low-drag sabot and a 777 primer. I could get 3-shot groups that were almost cloverleafed.

The choice of a regular 209 shotgun primer or a specific ML 209 sized primer is dependent on the powder you are using. If you are using Pyrodex or 777, then use a primer made for a ML only. They both need the hotter ignition. If you are using Blackhorn 209, then I believe you need to use a regular 209 primer.
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Old January 4, 2013, 09:33 AM   #23
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Quote:
There is a heck of a difference between loading a tight sabot and loading an over-sized ball, or Minie style projectile. I tried a Hornady FPB which is a copper jacketed "no skirt" Minie style projectile. They looked cool and worth trying. They mic out at .507 at the base. It was "hernia class" hard to load in the T/C. Might be much better in a different gun.

Birch
Birch, I tried these quite a bit in both my TC and my Savage. They were a bear to load in either but actually easier in the TC due to the flared muzzle. They were nearly impossible to get into the Savage. FYI...they didn't shoot any better than most sabot/bullet combos I tried. They were "OK" but not great. In case some of you don't know it, PowerBelts are so loose in some guns that if you hang the gun upside down in a stand they suggest you push the bullet back down on the powder. They will actually move off the charge. I got them to shoot pretty good but they performed poorly on deer. After shooting seven whitetails with them I trashed them. They disintegrate on impact. I've never recovered an entire bullet, never had a pass through, and in two cases had the bullet explode on the outer hide and never even penetrate the animal. They're for people too lazy to find a good load or have no idea of what good bullet performance really is.
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Old January 4, 2013, 10:00 AM   #24
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BLE:
Quote:
I have never used muzzle loading 209s in my BP shotshells and regular 209s work just fine in those. It's splitting hairs mostly and maybe an excuse to price gouge because the box of primers has a picture of a muzzleloader on it.

It's like motor oil, put a picture of a motorcycle on the label and the price doubles.
You aren't considering the fact the BP shotshells generally have a crimp that will contain the initial push of the exploding primer. I use regular 209s in BP shotshells also.

Doyle:
Quote:
The choice of a regular 209 shotgun primer or a specific ML 209 sized primer is dependent on the powder you are using. If you are using Pyrodex or 777, then use a primer made for a ML only. They both need the hotter ignition. If you are using Blackhorn 209, then I believe you need to use a regular 209 primer.
ML primers are not as hot as shotgun 209 primers. 777 and Pyro need ignition that is generally hotter than percussion caps, but do not need ignition as hot as standard shotgun 209 primers. BH209 needs hotter ignition, and recommends standard shotgun 209 primers.
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Old January 4, 2013, 10:03 AM   #25
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Quote:
ML primers are not as hot as shotgun 209 primers. 777 and Pyro need ignition that is generally hotter than percussion caps, but do not need ignition as hot as standard shotgun 209 primners. BH209 needs hotter ignition, and recommends standard shotgun 209 primers
Yea, I keep getting that backwards. I remembered that BH209 needs regular and 777 needs ML primers but I got the reasons backwards.
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