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Old January 21, 2013, 06:06 PM   #1
TheDoubleDeuce
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7.62x54 Steel Core vs AR500 @ 200yds

Okay, so here's the deal. I was at the range Saturday throwing some shots at the 200 yard 1/2" AR500 steel silhouette target. I was using grey-tipped steel core 148gr surplus ammo out of a MN 91/30.

I went back today and the range master asked me if I was using steel core ammo. He said somebody had "punched holes" in the steel target with steel core ammo.

I realize it's their range and their rules. But I was of the impression that a steel-core round at 200 yards would be fine against 1/2" AR500. I was NOT using armor-piercing rounds.

Opinions? Experiences? I didn't go out to the target to look at the "damage", but I'm just wondering if it was really my steel core that he was referencing.

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Old January 21, 2013, 06:26 PM   #2
the rifleer
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Its possible, its going plenty fast at 200 yards. I'm not familiar with that type of steel, but I know I have seen pictures of 7.62x54r shooting though 1/2'' steel.
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Old January 21, 2013, 08:03 PM   #3
TheDoubleDeuce
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AR500 is quite a bit harder than mild steel. As an example, Salute Targets test their AR500 with 30-06 and 50BMG Armor piercing rounds. I figured the steel core might put some little dimples in the steel, at most, but not put holes in it.
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Old January 21, 2013, 09:37 PM   #4
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I dont think 1/2" non ceramic anything is going to stop A.P 50 BMG.
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Old January 21, 2013, 09:53 PM   #5
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Quote:
AR500 is quite a bit harder than mild steel. As an example, Salute Targets test their AR500 with 30-06 and 50BMG Armor piercing rounds. I figured the steel core might put some little dimples in the steel, at most, but not put holes in it.
The whole point of the steel penetrator is to penetrate.
That's what it was designed to do.


The only real difference between "armor piercing" and "steel core" bullets, is that "AP" bullets have a hardened penetrator. Regular "steel core" bullets have an unhardened penetrator.

It matters to the ATF. But, in reality... they're both steel cylinders; and react in much the same manner.
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Old January 21, 2013, 09:53 PM   #6
TheDoubleDeuce
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I don't know what thickness they're testing, but I'm just quoting their site.

"We deliberately test our Salute AR500 with .30-06 and .50 cal. Armor Piercing rounds."

http://www.saluteproducts.com/quality
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Old January 21, 2013, 10:06 PM   #7
TheDoubleDeuce
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankenMauser View Post
The whole point of the steel penetrator is to penetrate.
That's what it was designed to do.
And i guess my thought process is that hardened steel is designed to prevent penetration. It would be different if i was talking about penetrating a car door.

I've been looking around at tests other people have done. Even real, hardened Armor piercing 30-06 rounds did not penetrate 3/8 plate consistently at 100 yards. So i would assume 1/2" plate would not be penetrated at 200 yards with regular steel core; maybe just some pitting. Of course it's still their house, their targets, their rules, but I was just curious.
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Old January 21, 2013, 11:55 PM   #8
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You could go count the holes, take another shot, then count the holes again
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Old January 22, 2013, 12:07 AM   #9
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Lol yep, except they won't let me shoot at it anymore to test it.
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Old January 22, 2013, 12:15 AM   #10
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I know at 100 yards 303 brit, 30-06 and 7.62x39 will all go through 1/2 steel plate, 200 is a little more debatable. those silver tips are tough though, the fact that they spark every time I hit steel with them definitely suggests the presence of more than copper and lead...
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Old January 22, 2013, 01:24 AM   #11
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I've seen 5.56 green tip Crater AR 500 @ 100yds so I have no problem believing that a 30 cal would go through it . I'd like to see some pictures of the steel . I'd like to know if it went through real easy or if it just barely punched through .

Quote:
We deliberately test our Salute AR500 with .30-06 and .50 cal. Armor Piercing rounds."
yea , NO ! There's no way it can handle 50 cal armor piercing round
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Old January 22, 2013, 02:39 AM   #12
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LPS, has a MILD steel core
it's not a penetratior, it's a budge move that gives IMPROVED penetration vs. pure led

then I've seen pure lead go through 1/4 scrap 500yards, mind you it was .50BMG...

as for holing it, I doubt it. crater it up, yeah.

as for this
Quote:
I know at 100 yards 303 brit, 30-06 and 7.62x39 will all go through 1/2 steel plate
that had to be some MILD steel, 1/4 hard ox bounces x39 and 7.62 NATO all day long (was tested at 50M from a 240B and RPK)
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Old January 22, 2013, 05:47 AM   #13
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I recently bought a 3/8" ar500 steel target specifically for shooting surplus steel core 7.62x54 @100-150yds. From my experience the only way that you even significantly cratered a 1/2" plate @200yds is if the range is lying to you and it is NOT ar500 steel or you accidentally bought actual armor piercing ammo and not the regular mild steel core com-bloc surplus.

My guess would be that somebody else either severely cratered the target before you shot with something significantly more powerful, making your rounds penetrate the last bit of steel instead of leaving very small craters themselves; OR somebody used actual armor piercing ammo sometime shortly before or after you and didn't get caught, leaving the range thinking you did it with your MILD steel core surplus.
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Old January 22, 2013, 09:40 AM   #14
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Quote:
I recently bought a 3/8" ar500 steel target specifically for shooting surplus steel core 7.62x54 @100-150yds. From my experience the only way that you even significantly cratered a 1/2" plate @200yds is if the range is lying to you and it is NOT ar500 steel or you accidentally bought actual armor piercing ammo and not the regular mild steel core com-bloc surplus.
I have two 3/8ths inch steel AR 500 silhouettes that I have shot with many hundreds of rounds of 7.62X54 Silver Tipped steel cored ammo and there is no visible damage to the plates at all.

This is the ammo I'm using:

http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.as...Can&groupid=40

If this is the ammo the OP's using, it would not pierce half inch AR500 at 200 yards,
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Old January 22, 2013, 12:05 PM   #15
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Mine is not Bulgarian, but it is the same composition. It's headstamped 188 over 78, which tells me it's Soviet-produced at factory 188 in 1978. It has no markings on the tip which indicates 147gr LPS to me. I have more on the way with lead bullets so i guess I'll just use that on their steel.
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Old January 22, 2013, 12:22 PM   #16
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I vote that the target is in fact not AR500.

Commie x54 is nasty stuff for sure... but it damn sure isn't going through 1/2 AR500 at that range (or any most likely)
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Old January 22, 2013, 12:42 PM   #17
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Quote:
Mine is not Bulgarian, but it is the same composition. It's headstamped 188 over 78, which tells me it's Soviet-produced at factory 188 in 1978. It has no markings on the tip which indicates 147gr LPS to me. I have more on the way with lead bullets so i guess I'll just use that on their steel.
Sounds like this ammo:

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinAmmo025.htm
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Old January 23, 2013, 02:55 PM   #18
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MGM is one of (if not "the") the largest manufacturers of steel targets...
From their website, the caps and bold print are theirs...

Quote:
PLEASE NOTE: DO NOT SHOOT STEEL TARGETS WITH 'XM-193' AMMUNITION. SUCH AMMUNITION IS INTENDED TO PENETRATE STEEL AND WILL CAUSE SEVERE DAMAGE TO TARGETS, INCREASING THE LIKELYHOOD OF FAILURE AND PERSONAL INJURY. DAMAGE TO TARGETS RESULTING FROM THE USE OF 'XM-193' WILL NOT BE COVERED BY THE WARRANTY.
So, it would stand to reason that if the measly little .223 with a steel core can do damage, a high-powered round like the 54R certainly would.

I have both 1/2" and 5/8" AR500 plates we take to the range...thousands of rounds, including a bunch of 54R (match handloads) and not so much as a ding, but we're shooting at a much greater distance (565). They've taken 50 BMG hits with no problems at that range.

Any steel at 200 can be an issue with high-power rounds. Targets should be free-swinging, and hung from the back side of the steel so they naturally angle downwards- deflecting the frags into the dirt.

I know guys shoot mild steel all the time at distances that close (200), but I wouldn't. Once mild steel (or shot-out or abused AR500) gets so much as cratered it is unsafe as it is impossible to control the direction of the fragmentation. If you're going to shoot steel core, high power rounds at that close a distance, use a soft target...
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Old January 24, 2013, 12:20 AM   #19
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XM193 is not penetrator, that's the XM855, 193 is just standard ball ammo, if a measly 55 grain FMJ will punch through I see no reason why a steel core 30 cal wouldn't.

and also, I have got 180 soft points out of a 300 weatherby magnum to punch through 3/4 steel plate at 100 yards, black tipped 30-06 will also but the silver tipped x54R bounces off, though it does still leave pot marks, at 200 against 1/2 I dont know, I rarely shoot my x54Rs at those ranges.
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Old January 24, 2013, 01:59 AM   #20
TheDoubleDeuce
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Tahunua, are you talking 3/4 mild steel or 500+ hardness?
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Old January 24, 2013, 03:24 AM   #21
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I have some AR 500 3/8 targets and shot one mistakenly with 5.56 green tip (paint worn off) and it put a small crater in it.
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Old January 24, 2013, 09:21 AM   #22
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Quote:
XM193 is not penetrator, that's the XM855
Yeah, no chit...I didn't catch that.

I'm guessing, they meant XM855...
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