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Old January 12, 2013, 08:21 AM   #1
Kframe
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9x19 Levergun?

Does any maker currently manufacture a lever action rifle or carbine chambered in 9x19?

I think that would be a nice compact, high capacity and fairly hard hitting package.
Plus, they could probably handle hotter handloads than most blowback self-loading carbines.
I wouldn't be surprised to see 1600fps with 115's.

So, do they exist?
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Old January 12, 2013, 08:42 AM   #2
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I've never seen one in 9x19, but 9x31R is pretty common.
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Old January 12, 2013, 09:14 AM   #3
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I would think feeding of such a short rimless cartridge would be very problematic. With enough input of time and money, almost anything is possible.
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Old January 12, 2013, 09:20 AM   #4
PatientWolf
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In addition the the probable feeding issues, I would be surprised if the 9x19 benefited from the longer barrel, but maybe that isn't your intent.
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Old January 12, 2013, 09:25 AM   #5
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My Marlin camp nine taught me all I needed to know about long barreled nine's. There isn't a significant velocity gain, as in a .357. Side by side with a 94AE, even the .38 special seems to shoot better. It's the case size which is too limited. I've never heard of Marlin being a slouch for accuracy. I have HK handguns that easily shoot better with the 9mm. I believe it's the rounds limitations in a long barrel.
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Old January 12, 2013, 09:51 AM   #6
Kframe
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I don't think I'd assume that feeding issues would be probable.
After all, length to diameter the 9x19 isn't much different of a ratio than .45 LC and .44 S&W Special, both of which have been successful in that platform.
Plus, the tapered case would feed better than the straight-walled revolver rounds, and the .45 LC barely has a rim, so being rimless I don't see the 9x19 as disadvantaged.

I see a couple reasons why a lever 9x19 would be nice; as a companion to a sidearm in the same caliber, longer sight radius and a capacity (in rifle length of 12-14 rounds), and as a levergun they are every bit as effective/lethal as EBR's but don't look like it, so they're unlikely to draw legislative scorn anytime soon.

If long-barreled 9's had no place we wouldn't have semiauto carbines; ANY caliber can usually be improved with handloading, and pistol calibers used in longer barrels often utilize slower powders than their factory loads.

I probably should have started this thread in the levergun rifle area rather than general, but I didn't notice that option at the time.

The original question still stands: has anybody produced a 9x19 levergun?
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Old January 12, 2013, 12:03 PM   #7
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no nobody has ever built one. browning has designed a lever action that takes box magazines rather than a tube so it is able to take rimless, pointed bullet cartridges but the ammo capacity is not what you would expect, pretty lousy actually. I fully agree with everyone else, the velocity gains of a 9mm through a 16 inch barrel is quite minimal and increase of energy is barely recordable. it's a pretty lousy option for hunting or just about anything else but punching holes in paper. a more solid design like a lever isn't going to offer much improvement over a semi and too long of a barrel can also be a bad thing.
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Old January 12, 2013, 01:10 PM   #8
Jim Watson
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No, it has not been done. It could be done but...
A lot of 9mm hardball is pretty pointy, and a straight case pistol cartridge in a tubular magazine is about guaranteed to put bullet noses against primers.

Ed Harris once had a .44 Marlin converted to .45 ACP but would not shoot hardball in it, even one at a time to chronograph, didn't want to give people funny ideas that might lead to a gangfire.
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Old January 12, 2013, 01:54 PM   #9
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Doubt a reliable 9mm lever could be built.
But you get about a 200 fps gain rifle over
pistol. And you would also gain a longer
sight radius.
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html
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Old January 12, 2013, 06:32 PM   #10
Kframe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Watson
No, it has not been done. It could be done but...
A lot of 9mm hardball is pretty pointy, and a straight case pistol cartridge in a tubular magazine is about guaranteed to put bullet noses against primers.

Ed Harris once had a .44 Marlin converted to .45 ACP but would not shoot hardball in it, even one at a time to chronograph, didn't want to give people funny ideas that might lead to a gangfire.
I was kind of assuming that A)the round ball wouldn't be any pointy-er than many .30-'30 loads and B)the 9x19 in a rifle wouldn't generate enough recoil to be worried about it. But, now that you mention it, due to the case profile of the .30-'30 I suppose the noses don't line up perfectly with the primers.

Good "point".

Regarding ballistic increases, I think most that've responded are considering factory ammo, only. I'm pretty certain that with slower powders one could cook up a handload that would benefit from a longer barrel; on the other hand, such loads wouldn't work well (or may even be dangerous) in a pistol - so my thought about a pairing of companion handgun/rifle 9's wouldn't work well anyway. Well, that's brainstorming for you, doesn't always pan out.
Thanks for the replies!

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Old January 13, 2013, 09:28 PM   #11
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The question about a Lever Action 9mm has already been answered.

My lyman #47 shows a 115gr bullet pushed by 8.7grs of Bluedot getting 1211fps from a 9mm pistol and 1421fps from a Marlin 9mm camp carbine. So a real velocity increase is available if you handload for it. Its not much but enough to insure a hollow point should expand at a hundred yards from the rifle.

On the other hand 357 rifles will shoot 125gr bullets at over 2000fps and 158gr bullets at near 1900fps and even faster if you are careful and use a chronograph in testing. The problem is that you are pushing pistol bullets way beyond their design limits. My personal loads for a 357 levergun are 160gr bullets at about 1600-1700fps for deer loads. If more speed is needed I just change guns. But that being said I will say my Marlin 357 is my most favorite gun. If I had to head to the hills thats the gun that I would take.
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Old January 13, 2013, 09:41 PM   #12
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I'm personally interested in this conversation. Too bad it doesn't exist. It's one of those rifles that would alot of fun to play around with. Granted we already have a few pistol carbines but there is just something about throwing a lever.
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Old January 13, 2013, 09:54 PM   #13
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Quote:
Doubt a reliable 9mm lever could be built.
But you get about a 200 fps gain rifle over
pistol. And you would also gain a longer
sight radius.
Looking at your BBTI link, some of the loads tested (who shoots 90 gr 9x19?????) you got around 200 f/sec improvement going from a 5" barrel to an 18" ..... but the 147 gr Hydrashock had less than 80 f/sec improvement.....

I hear guys saying that those 147gr loads are for SMG's, due to the higher velocity enabling them to expand..... not seeing it.
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Old January 14, 2013, 12:35 AM   #14
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I've seen some SA carbines in 9mm at gun shows. Apparently, they are not known for their reliability nor accuracy. I don't see how a non-rimmed cartridge could be used in a column magazine. A 38 Super might could as it is semi rimmed but I've never heard of that in a lever gun either.
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Old January 14, 2013, 07:13 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Creek Henry
...I don't see how a non-rimmed cartridge could be used in a column magazine. ...
Why?
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Old January 14, 2013, 07:54 PM   #16
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I would like one in 45acp and 9mm.
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