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Old January 7, 2013, 08:38 AM   #51
bird_dog
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I used to spend a lot of time on guitar forums and there was a lot of talking past each other on things that were purely a matter of taste.

"I want to sound like Eddie Van Halen."
"You should get this sweet rig that sounds like SRV!"
Ain't that the truth. Head over to 'thegearpage.net' (a guitar/amp site) and you'll see the same level of snobbery. I love the site, and have been a member there for years, but it's all the same thing. Brand loyalty, changing out parts on a brand new instrument you just spent thousands on just because someone said this one part is better than the other...

People are people, no matter their passion. And all of those people have opinions, no matter their level of knowledge.

All hunting season long during deer season, I kept thinking I SHOULD get my Super Redhawk out to hunt....but my Taurus M44 has killed so many deer, and is a bit more accurate....but damn, it's almost like I shouldn't say that here!

I like Taurus!! I just bought another one. Hahahahahahahaha.

Whew, that felt good.
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Old January 7, 2013, 01:37 PM   #52
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I try not to "Bash" someones gun unless what they did to it will likely hurt someone. It is difficult to debate with someone whose frame of reference is a game or movie, or the internet.
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Old January 7, 2013, 01:41 PM   #53
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the Airsoft operators are a bigger strain on my sanity
Yeah, but when one of those guys does something stupid after a couple of beers, I don't have to go to court over it. Big difference.
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Old January 7, 2013, 02:57 PM   #54
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Tiers

Will you all at least agree that there are different tiers of firearms and a low tier firearms should not be used for self defense. I don't mean to insinuate that everyone should spend 546465464 on their next defensive handgun. Then again I am not willing to trust my life to a Jimez, Tarus, or High Point.

For me Glock, Ruger, Smith, Remington, Sig, FN, Kahr, Kimber etc are all reliable for self defense. I think a lemon can exist among any of these but you are much more likely to end up with reliability.

As for opinions on these I believe they are subjective.

Regards, Vermonter
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Old January 7, 2013, 03:06 PM   #55
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If I may digress for a moment, while I have moments of gun snobbery, I look upon my Glock as the redheaded stepdaughter of my guns that needs to be beaten regulary in order to ensure good sammich making.

But that being said, one of my Fraternity Brothers who is doing his residency in Atlanta doesn't have much in the way of disposable income and he bought a Hi-Point for protection.

The gun functions flawlessly, eats anything he puts into it, and more importantly fit his budget.
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Old January 7, 2013, 10:18 PM   #56
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I must admit I am a bit opinionated when I think I know what I am talking about, and I will trash a gun or brand if I think it needs trashing. I have owned a lot of guns, and frankly I am surprised at how many I have owned that had problems with reliability. Most of it was quality control, but sometimes I get to thinking I am the most unlucky of gun buyers, when it comes to getting a gun that is a lemon.

But frankly I believe that problems are pretty common, anymore, with quality control. So, I definitely have some opinions based on my own experiences, both good and bad. And if I see a pattern with several guns of the same make, with the same problems, and I have, I am going to sound off what I have learned. And at the same time, if I have had really good luck with a particular gun, compared to the competition, I will note that too, especially if I see a pattern there too.

But of course that doesn't mean that someone else didn't have the opposite experience, and of course chalk my comments up to either brand loyalty or brand bashing.

But If I don't have any experience with a particular weapon, then I am not going to comment either way, unless of course it's just an opinion wanted based on likes or dislikes of similar experiences.

But one thing is for sure, there is a lot of crap for sale, which was mostly manufactured to separate one from his money, more then anything else. And it seems like there are so many guns out there, that need a trip to the gunsmith right out of the box, before they really work like they should. And maybe it's the consumer's fault, because we are often unwilling to pay what it takes to get a good gun out of the box, and the manufactures know it. We vote with our pocketbook.

Last edited by Blue Duck; January 7, 2013 at 10:23 PM.
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Old January 7, 2013, 10:24 PM   #57
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Will you all at least agree that there are different tiers of firearms and a low tier firearms should not be used for self defense. I don't mean to insinuate that everyone should spend 546465464 on their next defensive handgun. Then again I am not willing to trust my life to a Jimez, Tarus, or High Point.
So...... ummmm....errrrr ..... poor folk are not entitled to self defense?

That dog don't hunt.

I have been very poor at times in the past .... and IME it is the poor that are most likely to live where they NEED a gun ..... not everyone can afford a $400 gun.
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Old January 7, 2013, 10:44 PM   #58
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Will you all at least agree that there are different tiers of firearms and a low tier firearms should not be used for self defense.
Totally disagree.

If someone buys a gun he can afford and it's less than top quality and he takes it to the range, practices with it, tests it with his ammo of choice and it performs reliably to the point of being ok to carry for SD then the name on the gun makes little difference at that point in time.

The same steps also need to be done with any of the mainstream SD guns because you have to make sure IT is reliable as well. Just because a gun is inexpensive does not mean it can't be trusted for SD. It just needs to be tested first, like any gun you buy.
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Old January 7, 2013, 10:46 PM   #59
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My coments on various firearm brands, and models are based on my personal experiance with them. I have defended Taurus, and particularly the Judge platform because I have one, a PD Poly, and it does what I expect of it, and has been 100% reliable doing it. Along with Poly, I also have a Taurus PT22Poly that has been equally pleasant to own. Hi-Point also gets my favorable reaction. I bought a Hi-Point C9 just to see if it could possibly be as bad as the internet "experts" claim. Again, their expertise was most likely based on snobery, and was completely wrong. Likewise with the Heritage Rough Rider. Now when it comes to those lousy, ugly, POS Austrian junk pistols designed by a curtain rod maker, and made out of plastic, I just love my G20. LOL,
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Old January 7, 2013, 11:18 PM   #60
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Totally disagree.

If someone buys a gun he can afford and it's less than top quality and he takes it to the range, practices with it, tests it with his ammo of choice and it performs reliably to the point of being ok to carry for SD then the name on the gun makes little difference at that point in time.

The same steps also need to be done with any of the mainstream SD guns because you have to make sure IT is reliable as well. Just because a gun is inexpensive does not mean it can't be trusted for SD. It just needs to be tested first, like any gun you buy.
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I'll go further and disagree with you, as well: Some folks may not have enough money to do more than dry fire for practice.... Is a gun, any gun, and ammo, even FMJ, not better than "Please don't kill me, take whatever (even though I can't afford to replace anything, and NEED everything I have!)?

I'd bet the Geargia mom who dumped 5 of 6 rounds of .38's into the head/neck of the home invader this week (the one that's all over the news now) did not use $1+-a-pop premium +p personal defense loads..... but what she had worked just fine........ and beat "Please don't kill us, Mr. home invader." all to hell and gone.
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Old January 7, 2013, 11:24 PM   #61
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I have defended Taurus, and particularly the Judge platform because I have one, a PD Poly, and it does what I expect of it, and has been 100% reliable doing it.
For $668, a person on a budget could buy a used sR9c, a CCW class, and some practice ammo ....."snobbery" isn't even a factor ..... "ballistic innumeracy" might be, but not snobbery.
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Old January 8, 2013, 08:46 AM   #62
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Will you all at least agree that there are different tiers of firearms and a low tier firearms should not be used for self defense. I don't mean to insinuate that everyone should spend 546465464 on their next defensive handgun. Then again I am not willing to trust my life to a Jimez, Tarus, or High Point.
No. I won't agree, either. I have some of your approved list of guns, and several Taurus guns. They all pass the "trust my life to them" test.

Check my post above about my Taurus M44 being more accurate than my Super Redhawk. I don't consider the Taurus a 'lower tier' (pfffft on that term). It's simply lower priced.
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Old January 8, 2013, 11:32 AM   #63
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On High Point-- I have watched video after video of people ( High Piont Haters) Trying to break them and trash them. The issue they seem to have is try as you will,when you pull the trigger they go bang all the time. Those that think price has a lot to do with dependability are very neive in my mind. price is for the esstatic value mostly. High Points are Ugly,heavy Cheap Junk,But pull the trigger and they go bang. In all honesty-Is that not what you want from a SD gun?. People that own High Points don't think about if it is going to fire,because they know it will.
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Old January 8, 2013, 12:37 PM   #64
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Will you all at least agree that there are different tiers of firearms and a low tier firearms should not be used for self defense. I don't mean to insinuate that everyone should spend 546465464 on their next defensive handgun. Then again I am not willing to trust my life to a Jimez, Tarus, or High Point.
add another to the does not agree roster. I tend to hate on a lot of brands with Taurus, and Keltec being among them but I also recognize that with no other alternative these can be used for self defense.
my brother in law had a taurus Judge, I've watched him fire 5 rounds out of it and it locked up twice in that time. would I ever own a taurus? heck no but I would never tell him that if a man breaks into his house that he should not try to use it to save my sister and their children.

my best friend uses a hipoint40. I have shot that gun and I HATE it. it is one of the least user friendly pistols I have ever spent trigger time with(with the exception of maybe a CZ52) and to boot I was barely able to shoot pop cans at 15 yards with 20% efficiency, but that thing goes bang every time and if he needs to use it to save his wife and kids then I know it'll hit BG at 10 feet easily enough. my biggest wake up call for trashing these budget brand guns was when I was at the gun range at Camp Allen VA and an airman walked in with his taurus, as I began to heckle him over his choice of concealed carry he simply told me that with 3 children, all mobile and under the age of 4 the taurus can be locked to prevent his kids from accidentally firing it and still be able to keep it in the nightstand while not in use. added was the not too shabby 15,000 rounds without a failure that he claimed and I am not too loathe to believe him.

oppositely my brother started concealed carry with a Kahr CW40, the thing was the worst POS I've ever seen with horrible accuracy, slide lockback on every shot, and horrible customer service to boot. I will never recommend a Kahr as long as I live because of personal experience. similarly I have suffered more failures with Glocks than any other brand of hand gun, particularly their 40cal models and Gen 4 9mms. I will never own a glock and I try my best to steer new shooters away from them for that reason. just because they are in a higher price bracket does not mean that they are better quality guns.

a bullet fired from $150 dollar Keltec goes the same speed as a bullet firing from a $3200 Ed Brown 1911. it's all about how you use it, train with it and what features are most important to you.
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Old January 8, 2013, 02:57 PM   #65
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This is not to say that I occassionally ask my Fratenirty Brother, especially when we are going to Lake West Point if I can borrow his Hi-Point. because I left my anchor at home.
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Old January 9, 2013, 10:52 PM   #66
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Will you all at least agree that there are different tiers of firearms and a low tier firearms should not be used for self defense. I don't mean to insinuate that everyone should spend 546465464 on their next defensive handgun. Then again I am not willing to trust my life to a Jimez, Tarus, or High Point.

For me Glock, Ruger, Smith, Remington, Sig, FN, Kahr, Kimber etc are all reliable for self defense. I think a lemon can exist among any of these but you are much more likely to end up with reliability.
Forgive my forwardness since I am new to this forum but isn't the above statement exactly the type of comment this thread is about? After reading it I feel better all over than I do anywhere else.

There are so many impotent bedwetters posting on firearms forums they are almost not fun to read anymore. For what it is worth I've seen less slamming on this forum than I have on most of the ones I read.

My pet peeve is when a snob slams the purchase of another's firearm as cheap and inferior. All you can afford is all you can afford. Be happy for the purchaser. I have owned rifles and shotguns all my life but never bought a handgun until five years ago. It was a cheapie Stoeger Cougar. I glad I wasn'r reading Firearms forums back then or I would have probably had to start seeing a therapist to overcome my shame from buying such an inexpensive pistol. I now own a Colt Cobra, Detective Special, BuckMark Camper, SP-01 Tactical and a CZ 83 but the old Stoeger is special to me and always will be.

I think there are more funny comments in this one thread than any I have ever read before. Cool Beans.
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Old January 9, 2013, 11:31 PM   #67
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You all quoted me convinently there

My very next line started with "For me". I do believe that a person gets what they pay for. I would buy a used ruger over a new Jimez any day. My point is only that a less than reliable firearm may be a liability.

I guess my point is that you should go for the highest quality you can afford. With that said if what you can afford is a high point god bless you and hopefully you budgeted some ammo to train with.

Never did I say that the poor had no right to SD however I can see how my words could have been misconstrued.

ETA: Thanks for the bed wetter thing and welcome to TFL:-)

Last edited by Vermonter; January 9, 2013 at 11:33 PM. Reason: Name calling
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Old January 9, 2013, 11:41 PM   #68
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No offence meant to you Vermonter, just having a little fun. I would rather have a used .22 in a quality gun than a new Saturday Night Special in a larger caliber.
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Old January 10, 2013, 10:30 PM   #69
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I say use whatever gun you want, and price does not guarantee reliability. I have had high dollar guns that did not work right, and cheap guns that did.

As an example I have a couple of little keltec's that work 100%, but spent $600 on a little Sig .380 that was a jamming piece of crap. Then I ended up getting a couple of used Colt .380's that have never jammed and shoot accurate as heck.

It turns out that the little Sig .380 (Colt Mustang copy) is a hit or miss deal. My buddy bought one and loved it, mine was a jammer, but my original Colt Government .380 and my Mustang Pocketlite work flawlessly with all brands of ammo, so far that I have tried, as do my Keltec's.

My friends total up 3 Kimber II's 1911's that all developed bent firing pins, we replaced them with aftermarket firing pins and no more problems. I felt there was a pattern there, so I didn't wait, I went ahead and changed out my Kimber's firing pin. Of course we know Kimbers have a lot of MIN parts and some do break with hard use or maybe not so hard use, and these are fairly expensive guns, but basically good frames and slides.

There's plenty of stuff out there like that. Just like the Rossi 92's, pretty good guns after they have been slicked up, but out of the box, a crap shoot, and will likely give problems, and the those 1887 leveraction shotgun imports, rough as heck out of the box, but they are cheap, more or less. Might as well tell it like it is.
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