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Old December 26, 2012, 08:11 AM   #1
Mobuck
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I have to chuckle

at some of the folks who have very little rifle experience or knowledge who want info about "long range shooting". After reading numerous similar posts, it seems they think all they have to do is pony up the cash and instantly become 1000 yards X-ringers.
Next in line are all those buying AR type rifles who have zero knowledge or experience but feel the need to add all sorts of crap(most of which will never be needed or doesn't make the rifle work better).
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Old December 26, 2012, 08:19 AM   #2
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Yeah the, "Hi, I'm new to firearms and I plan on shooting 800-1200 yards, what rifle and scope should I buy." posts pop up a lot. Those people are new to firearms though and are just learning about their true capabilities. A lot of it has to do with the fact that, there are more SpecOps Super Snipers, that can shoot MOA 1000 yard groups online, than there are anywhere else in the world.
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Old December 26, 2012, 08:28 AM   #3
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I understand the amusement. It's been my experience that you've got to shoot the number of rounds = the yardage to become experienced enough to step up to the next yardage.

For example, you need to shoot 100 rounds at 100 yards, 200 rounds at 200 yards, 300 rounds at 300 yards, etc, etc, to get to the 1000 yard line. It's better if you learn from every shot, or every 5-round group.

There is no magic answer to marksmanship. It is kind of like that old joke about practice. "Hey, Mister, how do I get to Carnegie Hall?" "Practice, son, practice."
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Old December 26, 2012, 09:27 AM   #4
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I am an awful 1000 yard shot, though having practiced at it for the last 20 years you would think I would be getting better.

I am fine out to 600 yards though, shot HM scores many a time.

I remember being squadded in a 1000 yard match with a Wimbleton Cup Champion; the same Wimbleton Cup that Carlos Hathcock is famous for winning. He was commenting on how we, with known loads, known 1000 yard zero’s at the same range, never hit the ten ring first shot, in fact, we are pretty happy just to hit the black. Whereas the “sniper” crowd regularly gets head shots each and every time.

Shooting is a skill. You get better by practicing, you cannot buy scores through esoteric reloading practices, expensive reloading equipment, or even expensive gear. If the squirrel has the nut but does not have the teeth, it will not feast on the seed.


Well I guess I will put on my Air Jordan's and win the National Basketball Championship, that is all it takes, right, expensive shoes?
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Old December 26, 2012, 09:41 AM   #5
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I toatally agree!! I've been an avid reloader and shooter all my life. Me and a friend decided to try the long range stuff out, we use to be able to fish the rivers for steelhead and animals were plentiful enough we looked forward to deer season, game dept took away steelhead fishing, (I sold my drift boat) and deer hunting has gotten pathetic to say the best! (I moved to idaho )

anyway it got to the point we had nothing to do for entertainment so we thought what the heck let's try long range shooting, we both planned to shoot our 7 Rem Mags, my friend went with a burris scope and used the dial system, I chose the zeiss with built in reticle out to 800 yrd (Rapid Z 800) its really hard to find places there you can shoot past 6 or 8 hundred yards.

Anyway we both had loads worked up for our rifles that shot an inch or less at 100 yrds, we shot 140 grain nosler ballistic tips, I mounted the new zeiss scope and figured I was as ready as I could be, I had even built a nice portable shooting bench, I loaded up and headed out to the one place we could get out to 800 yrds and met up with my friend, we set up misc targets including gallon milk jugs filled with water, we were shooting into a really nice dirt bank and it was easy for the spotter to see where you hit.

I set up at 700 yrds on one of the water jugs and let one loose, my friend called the shot 3 feet or so low, I got ready again and squeeeeezed the trigger, again 3 feet low! I had just spent nearly a 1000 dollars on a zeiss scope that didn't work! I was smokin mad! I got home and called zeiss, the guy started asking me ballistic questions and as a handloader I could answer everything he asked with ease, bullet weight, B.C., velocity, altitude, etc.

After a minute or so on the phone with him and giving him all my data he told me my 'Optimum power setting was 10.32' I thought to myself what the hell? I bought a 4.5-14 power scope but the upper power settings were useless, I bought a 14 power scope to shoot 14 power at long range!

Anyway back to the range we went, set up again and I adjusted my power setting down to what looked like 10.32, zeiss has little marks showing a quarter and so on so I was sure it was close. I held on the exact same target at 700 yrds and exploded it, everything worked flawlessly, but everything I do changes impact, elevation, barometric pressure etc.

I have learned a system that works well for me but it has taken a lot of time and dedication! if I were to try a shot like that on an animal everything would have to be PERFECT, no wind, I need to know my elevation etc............ there's way more to it than one might think!!! Amd get ready to open your wallet and be generous!

Last edited by Art Eatman; December 26, 2012 at 09:53 AM. Reason: Paragraphs...
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Old December 26, 2012, 10:19 AM   #6
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One way I've put it into perspective before is with a little visual...

"Here are your 1000 meter targets--inside that little red circle. See 'em yet?"


"Oh, let me help. Here's what they look like through a scope at 24x..."


"Now tell me again when you shot your last 5-shot group that measured .75 MOA or less and how often do you practice it?"
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Old December 26, 2012, 10:27 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangefinder
One way I've put it into perspective before is with a little visual...
That simply amazes me, that you guys can find places like that to shoot. Down here in north Louisiana, a long shot is 250 yards. The longest shot I can find on land that's available to me is 287 yards, as measured by a surveyor.

I've fired over 1000 yards on tank ranges, but we were using very good fire control, very good rangefinders, and very good tanks. Trying to make those same shots with my hunting rifle would seem like an exercise in futility.

I really need to get out West more, and stretch my rifle and my optics.
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Old December 26, 2012, 10:42 AM   #8
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Well, The concept of shooting at long range has been greatly romanticized over the years by tv shows, movies and video games. Shots are taken all the time on "film" that any average shooter knows is almost impossible out in the real world. We now have two generations of video gamers who have never even held a real gun in their hands but are masters at the games all the time thinking they are just as good with a real gun. There are a lot of sports where people think if they spend mucho bucks and buy the best they will automatically be number one without any practice. I have a buddy who spent over 5 thousand dollars on a racing bicycle that has major parts made of carbon fiber and weighed in ounces rather than pounds. Was he ever surprised his first time out when riders on beat up "older" bicycles ran circles around him. We now live in a time of ultra instant gratification where practice and hard work to be good at something is secondary to hype, style and wow factor. Last week at a church function one of our teenage girl members that has flunked 2 grades in highschool was wearing a Rice University sweat shirt. I almost fell to the floor chuckling to myself.
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Old December 26, 2012, 11:12 AM   #9
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If a new shooter, wanting to gear up for his first attempt at long range shooting, can't come here to ask about preferred equipment so he can at least start off on the right foot...then where can he go to ask for that information?

There was a day for every one of us when we knew nothing and had to ask for advice. Is it that hard to just answer the question and help a fellow out from time to time?
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Old December 26, 2012, 11:19 AM   #10
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The ones I like are the "Hi, I don't know anything about guns but I want to know how to build my own rifle from some pieces of iron I picked up at the junk yard."

Jim
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Old December 26, 2012, 11:38 AM   #11
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"If a new shooter, wanting to gear up for his first attempt at long range shooting, can't come here to ask about preferred equipment so he can at least start off on the right foot...then where can he go to ask for that information?"


Mike, I think the question is....should a new shooter start out at the outer limits of shooting expertice without practicing a lot at much shorter ranges first? You can tell from the way many of the questions are worded is that most of these folks have never even shot a rifle at all let alone spent any time working there way up to 1,000 yards. They want to start at the top first and work their way down where us mere mortals spend most of our time.
It's probably best to start a 3 year old out on a tricycle before you let them drive a 400 hp Mustang.
PS- After re-loading and casting for 40 years my favorite question that comes up all the time is, "What one powder can I use for my 4 pistols and 8 rifles in 12 different calibers?"
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Old December 26, 2012, 11:53 AM   #12
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I jes wanna know, if a BG is hiding behind the West side of a barrier, can I shoot toward the East & expect a headshot in about 45 mins ? .



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Old December 26, 2012, 12:54 PM   #13
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I could care less what questions they ask. They are interested in the firearms sport....and for that, I'm very excited for them. Perhaps there are now more interested newcomers than there are mentors to assist them? If so, then there is a lot of work to be done. Maybe a good first step is to provide a reference to a good book that would help them get off to a good start. In the reloading forums, lots of new folks are immediately referred to "ABCs of Reloading" or a similar book. What's the equivalent for the new folks wanting to get into long distance shooting? Just tossing out an idea.....
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Old December 26, 2012, 01:10 PM   #14
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Quote:
We now have two generations of video gamers who have never even held a real gun in their hands but are masters at the games all the time thinking they are just as good with a real gun.
I especially like how they have the hash marks on the reticule for different ranges but all the guns shoot like lasers to the same point of aim no matter what the range is.
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Old December 26, 2012, 01:11 PM   #15
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I learned

When I wanted to know how to do this I had to learn it from somewhere, I mostly learned from reading books and trying to duplicate.

That's one good thing about a book, it won't make a post complaining about someones greenhorn questions about long range shooting.
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Old December 26, 2012, 01:23 PM   #16
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There are lots of people that want to run before they crawl. Don't discourage them from buying 1000 yard equipment. Either they will grow into it or they will realize that long distance shooting is hard and you will have a chance to get some lightly used gear, cheap!
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Old December 26, 2012, 01:37 PM   #17
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Quote:
I set up at 700 yrds on one of the water jugs and let one loose, my friend called the shot 3 feet or so low, I got ready again and squeeeeezed the trigger, again 3 feet low! I had just spent nearly a 1000 dollars on a zeiss scope that didn't work! I was smokin mad! I got home and called zeiss, the guy started asking me ballistic questions and as a handloader I could answer everything he asked with ease, bullet weight, B.C., velocity, altitude, etc.
You mean the magic ranging reticle scopes are not all that magic?



Actually, Zeiss' system seems like a decent approach to getting an off the shelf reticle system to work with different loads, adjusting the magnification to get the spacing between the lines to match the predicted drops of a given load.

That being said, it is still just that, "predicted".

I don't mind the noob questions, I find posters that don't bother to read the actual question before providing input, usually with their particular favorite cartridge.

Post: I have rifles x, y, and z, and I want to do <something> which would be better for this purpose?
Answer: You need to buy a 427 eargasplittenloudenboomer, it is the only thing capable of doing what you seek.

Bonus points if the "answer" comes 3 years or more after the original post.
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Old December 26, 2012, 01:46 PM   #18
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I never answer the 1,000 yard questions because the stark reality is that I'm not worth a hoot past 300 yards and wouldn't dare take a shot at a deer past 200 yards. Here in the Piney Woods of East Texas that isn't a problem because there are a lot of trees in many places.
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Old December 26, 2012, 01:51 PM   #19
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I agree that the newbies that come online and tell you they are going to buy a rifle and scope for shooting 1,200 yds and in the same breath start asking a mishmash of basic and advanced questions can be amusing. If they come on and ask instead of telling I find it much more reasonable and will provide input, although it is hard to provide meaningful input to someone who has never done what they are asking how to do. You can only coach someone who has tried and failed and admits they do not know everything. If they ask and apply the advice they receive we can provide direction, but you cannot steer a parked car.
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Old December 26, 2012, 02:14 PM   #20
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Emcon5, the reticle definately works and works very well, but there are a ton of variables that all have to work together to make it work, I didn't do my homework when I bought the zeiss with rapid Z-800 reticle, when I got it I knew nothing about how it worked. I have since learned how to use it very well and can consistently hit gallon jugs filled with water out to 800 yards, everything has to be right in order for it to all come together and work. I will say that the 14 power end of my scope is worthless at anything over 200 yards and its a bummer to not be able to use it! Zeiss has a calculator on there website you use to figure all this out and it works very well but somewhat of a pain! It is neat to make shots at those ranges with confidence and watch targets break
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Old December 26, 2012, 02:31 PM   #21
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Some guys like there AR's all tricked out...including me.

What gets me: Is that some of these hunter's, buy all these thousand yard capable hardware for there rifles, and expect to bag game at 600 yards and beyond, because they don't want to go through the trouble of stalking and shooting the animal at sportsmanlike distances. Shooting long distance's {600-1,000 yards} at a target or enemy is one thing...shooting at a game animal --- at these distance's --- is another.

Last edited by Erno86; December 26, 2012 at 02:45 PM.
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Old December 26, 2012, 02:45 PM   #22
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Just go to the longrangestore.com and load up on all the goodies. Special scopes with custom laser engraved turrets that let you just dial in the yardage and off you go.

Shooting long distances at the range is one thing. Doing it on game animals changes the game from "hunting" back to "shooting". There is no hunting skills involved whats-so-ever. Just drive down the road and find an animal out there 700 yards away and pop him off. No wonder they get big racks. The animals don't even know they're there. Not hunting in my book.
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Old December 26, 2012, 03:25 PM   #23
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Quote:
Shooting long distance's {600-1,000 yards} at a target or enemy is one thing...shooting at a game animal --- at these distance's --- is another.
I need to preface my comment by stating that I don't hunt, but....I do shoot long range (with my sons) exclusively.

I read comments all the time about how someone has taken their twelve year old on a whitetail hunt, and they pulled the shot at 50 yards, and missed completely...

Or, sometimes it's the experienced hunter, that misses, and not his child...

IMO, it is about the experience of the shooter, the ability of the hardware to make the shot, and some common sense on the shooter's part to know whether he can make the shot based on conditions, or not...

By and large, experienced long range marksmen are just as capable at a taking a long range kill shot (conditions permitting) as the guy that dusts off his rifle twice a year to go shoot a buck at 100 yards.
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Old December 26, 2012, 08:33 PM   #24
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You know it is crazy, I really started getting into precision shooting with a 308, bolt rifle scope and bipod. Then I got into High Power with an AR service rifle (currently getting a Krieger barrel installed). Then I got into rimfire, and boy is it hard to clean a 50 foot smallbore target. Now I'm practicing air rifle in the basement, trying to clean the 10 pinhead on an ISSF target.

My training has gone from "long range" prone to short range standing unsupported. What I have learned along the way.

On a calm day, with good ammo, and known scope adjustments (or even a good ballistic table), just about anyone can seem like a top shot with a bolt gun off of a bipod against "tactical" targets like an iron maiden. On a windy day that all changes.

On a calm day, with a service rifle or iron sighted match rifle, just about anyone can shoot a tight group at 300 or 600 from the prone slung position. Matches are won on your belly and lost on your feet. The wind screws up a lot of shooters, and standing screws up a lot of shooters. A .22 bullet hole is tiny inside of a 6" circle at 300.

In my basement, I have no wind, conditions are very stable, but the 10 pinhead is smaller than my .177 caliber pellet. An Olympic level shooter can put 60 shots through the pinhead on the same target and only enlarge that pinhead a little bit. I can't do 5 tens in a row, yet.

So making me a better shooter right now is mastering positions, hold, and timing. All the fundamentals that everyone says you should practice. I haven't figured out a good way to train on the wind at home, so I'll just try as best I can at real matches.

Anybody know of a good way to train on wind calls at home?

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Old December 26, 2012, 09:33 PM   #25
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I asked one of these questions about a month back and I learned a ton. Ive fired thousands and thousands of rounds under 200 yards and wanted to get into long range shooting. After 3 pages of great responses I learned more in a night of reading than I had in a year of searching the web and reading articles. Im still trying to put my gun pieces together, but just because someone asks the question "I want to shoot 1000 yards" doesnt make them a lesser person or a noob at shooting a rifle
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