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Old January 3, 2013, 08:11 PM   #1
rebs
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gun ban history

A LITTLE GUN HISTORY

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. >From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
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In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
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Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
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China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
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Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
---- ------------- -------------

Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
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Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
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Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.
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You won't see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information.

Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens.

Take note my fellow Americans, before it's too late!

The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson.

With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'.

During WW II the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED!

If you value your freedom, please spread this anti gun-control message to all of your friends.


The purpose of fighting is to win.
There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more important than either.
The final weapon is the brain.
All else is supplemental.

SWITZERLAND ISSUES EVERY HOUSEHOLD A GUN!
SWITZERLAND'S GOVERNMENT TRAINS EVERY ADULT THEY ISSUE A RIFLE.
SWITZERLAND HAS THE LOWEST GUN RELATED CRIME RATE OF ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!!

IT'S A NO BRAINER!
DON'T LET OUR GOVERNMENT WASTE MILLIONS OF OUR TAX DOLLARS IN AN EFFORT TO MAKE ALL LAW ABIDING CITIZENS AN EASY TARGET.

I'm a firm believer in the 2nd Amendment.
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Old January 3, 2013, 10:55 PM   #2
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Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.
While there's some correlation between gun control and democide, you'd have a hard time proving causation. There are other factors to consider in each of those cases.
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Old January 4, 2013, 08:35 AM   #3
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Pax posted a marvelous thread on this some time ago.
I'll see if I can dig it up and link to it.
I believe it's in the old archives of legal and political - which would make it a read only thread.
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Old January 4, 2013, 09:47 AM   #4
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Don't forget Mexico. Their constitution was changed in 1917 to restrict carrying outside the home, and that was reinforced by law in 1971. Now look at them: citizens are helpless prey against drug cartels.

I look for similar long-term consequences in Australia and UK.
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Old January 4, 2013, 11:04 AM   #5
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While there's some correlation between gun control and democide, you'd have a hard time proving causation.
+1. For many decades, Canada has had gun control regulations that are fairly severe by American standards, but Canadian history is notable for a near-total absence of anything resembling armed civil conflict or genocide.

Also, be careful what one says about Switzerland, or Israel for that matter. Both countries have lots of guns, but their societies are almost unique in the world, and both countries have arms registration and possession requirements that would make most American gun owners tremble.

FWIW a close relative of mine had several coworkers who had to work at a client location in Switzerland for several months; they said that the country seemed almost like the Twilight Zone, beautiful and filled with happy smiling sociable people, but with government regulations that seemed to permeate every corner of society... and most of the populace seemed to welcome the apparent micromanagement. NOT the USA, not even close!
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Old January 4, 2013, 11:10 AM   #6
Glenn E. Meyer
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I read a book on genocides a bit ago. Forget the title - duh - I could check out my library records.

Anyway - when a majority decides to attack a minority, there are various reasons and factors. They start with discrimination and discriminatory laws, then they move isolation and attempts to remove the group. If that doesn't suit their purpose, they become genocidial.

However, the author made the point that the target group lacked the means to defend themselves.

If they have that - then you may have a civil war (which is also charming) but you don't have total annihilation of a group.

I agree with Tom, that gun control wasn't causal but it did allow the atrocities.

You may remember that in the USA, gun control laws were earlier on aimed at African-Americans as they might righteously defend themselves against oppression. The Black Panthers using the 2nd Amend. as grounds for armed SD against oppression caused gun laws to be passed in CA (by conservatives).

Now - for God's sake, if we want to look intelligent - drop the line about the Japanese not invading America. There is no scholarly source for the quote. The Japanese plans were and are well known. There was NO plan to invade the US - ever. The quote is probably false and cannot be attributed to a legit source.

We look like idiots if we keep saying that. Last, there is NO possibility that anyone could invade the USA in a conceivable time scale - so you aren't going to be a Wolverine.

We lose gun rights if we look stupid.

The Swiss situation is more complex. They weren't invaded as they cooperated with the Nazis and mined their tunnels. That was the biggest deterrent to invasion. The Germans didn't need to.

Every household is an overstatement and spme Swiss are arguing against that model. So far it hasn't been successful. The Swiss have a very different socio-economic, demographic mix than ours, so direct crime rate comparision is more complex.

What the Swiss example IS good for - is to counter the idea that gun presence per se will prime aggression and cause crime.

There are strong reasons for the 2nd Amend. but we must be factual.
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Old January 4, 2013, 11:18 AM   #7
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While there's some correlation between gun control and democide, you'd have a hard time proving causation. There are other factors to consider in each of those cases.
I think yes, and no....

other factors are the determinants as to why a group forms, the shape it takes and the direction it wants to go. Other factors make the road. But it is gun control that allows them to run down anyone who gets in the way. It is gun control that prevent opposition from building a roadblock, or blowing a bridge.

Gun control is a two sided coin (or a double edged sword, if you prefer). One side is the "control" of guns in the hands of the people (registration, confiscation, etc, ultimately removal of guns from the people), and the other side of gun control is the control of guns by those in power (police, militatry, etc.). IT is the guns they control that gives them the power to do as they please, ultimately.

It is the combination of disarmament of the opposition, and control of armed supporter that allows a regeime to wield its power. Hitler,Stalin, Mao, etc., wouldn't have been able to murder millions without guns (arms) in the hands of people who would obey them, and no arms (or rediculously few) in the hands of their opposition.

Gun control alone is not the cause, but it is a necessary step for despotism to succeed. Other factors may put the dictator in the driver's seat, but it is gun control that keeps them there, and provides the horsepower for them to drive where, and over whom, they wish.
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Old January 4, 2013, 12:26 PM   #8
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Well said, 44 AMP.

BTW - here's a recent article on Switzerland:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/04/wo...thorities.html

It shows how a perhaps mentally ill person found a way to circumvent the laws.
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Old January 4, 2013, 12:41 PM   #9
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Rebs,

Having lived there, take my word for it - Switzerland is not a paragon of firearms rights. They don't issue every man in the country a rifle; the vast majority of Swiss men who receive a weapon for military/militia training voluntarily return the weapon to the government at the end of their military tenure. Furthermore, Swiss males who are issued a rifle to keep at home for military use are not permitted to keep ammunition with them at home any longer. A majority of the population continues to push for further gun control legislation and cutting back on military spending. Most adult Swiss that I spoke to when I lived there weren't even sure whether or not they could own a rifle. That country really went down the toilet.
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Old January 4, 2013, 03:18 PM   #10
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I think we keep our senses, and our sense of humor. I think that it is terrible we have to fight the people we elected to do the right thing that we want. Still, if we just throw out varied reports, rumors and myths, and not facts, we diminish the value of our position.

Each and every time I see someone from the anti-gun side battle a pro-gun advocate, it resorts to the anti-gun person becoming hostile, accusatory and threatening. Odd, but true. Most of those that represent us sit calmly, lay the facts on the table and smile. If I walked into the room and watched that debate and didn't have an opinion either way, but had a vote, I'd vote for the pro-gun just based on the ability to present themselves at a level of calm and preparedness they have.

That said, we ALL need to do that. Yes, let's have fun with some of it. Let's call out those that are ridiculous. Let's vote OUT those that mean to infringe on our rights. Most off all, let's stand together with good common facts, not ones that stretch to the far reaches. Heck, I'm almost wondering if this President and Congress are wrapping so much focus on gun control to get us all, anti-gun people too, with taxation and terrible health care. Its happening.
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Old January 4, 2013, 03:34 PM   #11
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Factual Note

Only 27 Amendments to the Constitution have been ratified since June of 1788. Only one of those Amendments, the 18th Amendment, which began Prohibition, was repealed by the 21st Amendment. (I'll drink to that)

The 2nd Amendment seems to be standing on pretty firm ground, however, as has been case history, there are certain limitations, bans and parameters put in place, which must be watched and fought.

If you figure how much the musket and cap and ball pistol, to the revolver, to the semi-auto pistol and rifles have evolved, all the while battling those opposed to them, it obviously was led by well educated and effective citizen voters.

Thanks for this forum to not only buy, sell and trade items; read ideas to repair, maintain and upgrade a firearm; and the great friends we meet who share a common interest. The American way of life!
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Old January 4, 2013, 03:47 PM   #12
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Look, it's extremely doubtful that there will be an attempt to ban all firearms and thus disarm the American people so that genocide can be carried out.

It's extremely doubtful that all firearms will be banned. (Despite the howls of some.)

It's doubtful that all AK or AR type firearms will be banned or confiscated.

It is unlikely that Garands, Ruger Ranch Rifles, M1 carbines, etc. will be banned.

It is likely that they will go for limitations on mag capacity for guns long and short. It's likely they will limit some features on some long guns and possibly sidearms. It's likely they will go for a national 10 day wait on firearm purchases. Restrictions on internet sales of firearms and magazines. National firearms registration and database, etc.

Seems more useful to discuss what they are likely to do and how to argue against that then to argue that the Queen of England is out to disarm us so she can commit genocide and get her Empire back.

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Old January 4, 2013, 05:07 PM   #13
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I seriously doubt that they will ever enact a national registry of long guns. Registering every bolt action rifle and shotgun in the country is a logistic impossibility, even for those people who worship the bureaucracy. There has ti be over a hundred million of these things in the country. And let's not forget, right or wrong, certain guns have more respect and prestige in the American culture than other guns. Even gun control advocates have less fear of grandpa's antique lever action rifle or side by side shotgun. Never mind that either of those could do as much damage in the wrong hands as an AK-47; it's just an unfortunate fact that people associate AK-47 rifles with magazine drums with Al Qaeda operatives (and how can we really expect differently, when do people see Kalishnakovs in the news not in the hands of a Muslim terrorist or guerilla warrior?). But their Dad's classic Winchester? Nah, that's not a criminal's weapons, that's a sportsman's gun to them. If you want to understand why these gun control supporters think the way they do, you have to consider the cultural conditioning.
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Old January 4, 2013, 05:27 PM   #14
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We need to keep the conversations going, but we also need to show up at events and speak strongly and intelligently about our position. If we speak from the "fear" of bans and restrictions, we lose the demeanor of calm.

Debate calmly, smile, and realize we control a lot of the outcome.
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Old January 4, 2013, 05:49 PM   #15
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Quote:
Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.

Do you think they would not have being rounded up and exterminated if they were armed. If you think armed civilians would have stopped the the Nazi and Russian war machines rounding up and killing millions you are kidding yourself. It might of made it more difficult but it wouldn't of stopped them.
So to say that they were rounded up and killed because of gun control is as i rubbish.

The reason some countries ban guns is because they used terrorism and guns to get into power. So they don't want the population to have firearms in case the same happens to them.

Last edited by manta49; January 4, 2013 at 05:59 PM.
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Old January 4, 2013, 07:46 PM   #16
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Do you think they would not have being rounded up and exterminated if they were armed. If you think armed civilians would have stopped the the Nazi and Russian war machines rounding up and killing millions you are kidding yourself. It might of made it more difficult but it wouldn't of stopped them.
So to say that they were rounded up and killed because of gun control is as i rubbish.
You have no way of justifying your argument. List a great genocide that has happened with an armed populace without confiscation and/or civil war.

Quote:
The reason some countries ban guns is because they used terrorism and guns to get into power. So they don't want the population to have firearms in case the same happens to them.
Motive is irrelevant to result
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Old January 4, 2013, 08:59 PM   #17
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The genocide scholars state that a characteristic of a victim population is that they cannot defend themselves. Not gun scholars - other historians.

A genocide seems not to get started if the target group is capable. You might get civil war but that's a different beast.

So we cannot prove what would have happened in Europe. The Jews in Russia and Germany had discrepant views but both argued against self-defense.

In Germany, they didn't think it would happen to them as they were Germans. In Russia - it was thought that if you resisted - say shoot a Cossack - then more would come and kill all. Tnus, it was better to lose Grandma then the whole village.

But you don't know if from the start they were capable of resistance they picture would change.

In the USA, recall that gun laws were put in place to oppress blacks as it was feared they would resist before the end of slavery and during the Jim Crow era. The CA laws against the Black Panther demonstrations of armed SD indicates the state worries about such.
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Old January 4, 2013, 10:59 PM   #18
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There are two things that are necessary to resist violence, up to and including genocide. The ability to resist (arms) and the will to resist. If you have one, but not the other, you are, sadly, doomed. If you don't have either, then you have doomed yourself.

And even if you have both, you are not guaranteed peace, or victory. But, at least, you have the opportunity to try.

A civil war is an ugly thing, but nearly as ugly as genocide.
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Old January 5, 2013, 09:37 AM   #19
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You have no way of justifying your argument. List a great genocide that has happened with an armed populace without confiscation and/or civil war.
So all countries that have gun control are getting ready to commit genocide on their population Rubbish. All countries have gun control of one form or another. And for different reasons.

Last edited by manta49; January 5, 2013 at 10:00 AM.
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Old January 6, 2013, 12:00 AM   #20
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Great post. I linked to it on FB to try and educate the masses. Nobody wants to believe these things could happen here. Lets keep our rights so that nothing like that can ever happen here.
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Old January 6, 2013, 11:36 AM   #21
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Manta - who said that all gun countries that have gun control want to commit genocide?

First, all countries have the potential for genocide. It might be far off but it is a characteristic of human society.

Second, try to be logical.
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Old January 6, 2013, 01:57 PM   #22
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I've seen it argued numerous times that an armed populace such as ours still does not have the might to stand up to an organized professional army. What this arugment ignores, however, is that a resistance movement needs not defeat an invading army head-on to be successful.

Even a despotic leader needs the will and support of the majority of his people in order to be successful. No less an authority than Sun Tzu plainly stated that no country has ever benefited from prolonged war. All that a resitance movement has to do to ultimately defeat an invading army is to make the occupation so prolonged and so costly that the invading leader loses the will and support of his people. For a graphic example of this, one needs look no further than the Vietnam War. The U.S., starting out, had just about every military advantage and neither the NVA nor VC could ever succeed in taking on the Americans head-to-head. What they did have, however, was the determination to turn the Vietanm War into a drawn-out, ugly, and costly war that the American people eventually stopped supporting.

Likewise, a resistance movement can tie-down and weaken an invading force enough to leave them at the mercy of their other enemies. For example, resistance movements in France, Norway, Greece, and several other contries during WWII served to tie-down the German army, forced the Germans to consume valuable resources, and provided valuable intelligence to the Allies. All of this contributed to the eventual Allied victory.
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Old January 6, 2013, 04:28 PM   #23
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Second, try to be logical.
I think because there is talk of gun control that might never happen. Talking about genocide the holocaust government conspiracies etc is not being logical or helpful.
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Old January 6, 2013, 05:01 PM   #24
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Gun control didn't cause democide...but it did make it a heck of a lot easier.
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I think that one of the notions common to the anti-gunner is the idea that being a victim is 'noble'; as if it is better to be noble in your suffering than disruptive in your own defense.
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Old January 6, 2013, 06:05 PM   #25
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There was not talk of conspiracies for a holocaust. The genocide discussion revolves around the potential of such against an armed vs. unarmed minority.

As I said before, history and social psychological research indicates that societies can become monstrous fairly quickly on a historical scale.
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