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Old December 27, 2012, 10:00 AM   #1
Okcafe86
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Quickload

I don't know if its considered rude to request quickload numbers, but here goes.

I'm looking for the velocity out of my 16" ar.
Sierra 55gr spitzer
25.6 gr win748
2.250 coal
Wsr primer
Mixed headstamp brass
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Old December 27, 2012, 10:23 AM   #2
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It's not considered rude, but folks who like the program want to encourage sales to support the author's further work on it. He has to keep testing powders for updates. I would say you should feel OK to make a few such requests, but then buy the program for yourself. For one thing, it's multitude of adjustable arguments is an education in the factors affecting interior ballistics. For another, it takes somewhat more time and effort than you may be aware of to get really precise results, so you really want to be able to put that time in and not expect others to do a lot of it for you.

The main additional factors are, for any round peaking at over 30,000 psi, you need to enter the water overflow capacity of the cases as fired in your particular chamber. To find this you take a fired case that has not yet been decapped or resized. Measure it's length and jot that down. Weigh it. Jot that down. Then fill it with water just level with the case mouth but with no meniscus and no bubbles inside (tap it to dislodge these when it is nearly full) and no water drops on the outside. Weigh it again. Subtract the first weight from the second weight to get water overflow capacity in grains of water weight. That's the unit entered into the program. Report the case length and that capacity for use in the calculation.

You can also further refine the information with a chronograph to give you actual velocity. Actual velocities can vary 100 fps or more from predicted velocities because the QuickLOAD mathematical "gun" is more ideal than your actual gun is. Without adjusting for slugged bore dimensions, bore friction, and making allowances for primer and bullet hardness differences and other factors, it's pretty common for the program to predict velocity a bit on the high side. I'd suppose 50 fps high is pretty average, but I've had it be just about dead on in some instances, and high by as much as 250 fps in one instance. Occasionally you run into a gun with a "fast" barrel that shoots to higher velocity than is predicted, though that is less common.

The main thing, though, is that powders sold for hand loading have burn rates and energy content that vary ±3% from most makers, and also some variation in bulk density, which affects burn rate further in some powders. The program is based on tests from one sample which could be anywhere in the range. So you need velocity reading feedback to adjust the powder model burn rate and energy content to get more exact pressure and barrel time information (assuming you want that).

Where the program shines, though, is in helping choose powders and in revealing how much difference a change in charge will produce from an established load. The two exterior ballistics programs that come with it, especially the 3 DOF QuickTARGET Unlimited are very good.

In you particular case, the program defaults give me 46,692 psi and 2866 fps. However, my own AR's cases come out larger than the program's default case water overflow capacity, and if your chamber matched mine, I'd expect more like 41,000 psi and 2750 fps. So that factor matters a good deal. Mixed cases in .223/5.56 NATO don't matter much as there is a lot less variation in case capacity in this chambering than there is, for example, in .308/7.62 NATO.
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Last edited by Unclenick; December 27, 2012 at 10:32 AM.
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Old December 27, 2012, 10:32 AM   #3
Okcafe86
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Good information/advice, thanks.
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Old December 27, 2012, 10:33 AM   #4
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I was editing while you were posting and added a sort of result range for your information that I have.
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Old December 27, 2012, 10:38 AM   #5
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Wow that is significantly better performance than I was expecting. Does it have an option for ambient temperature? I def plan on buying the program however I deploy in a month and by the time the cd arrived it would probably be sitting in my mail box for most of the year.
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Old December 27, 2012, 11:26 AM   #6
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Yes, you can put in the temp. You are thinking of desert temps? I don't know if 748 is temp sensitive (prolly is - it is ball powder, right?).

Something like Varget is advertised as being less temp sensitive.
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Old December 27, 2012, 12:09 PM   #7
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The other day I was shooting those in 35 degree weather, so I figured that would have an impact.
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Old December 27, 2012, 12:23 PM   #8
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Yes, it can. And the desert has special heat problems. I gather Reloader 15 is being replaced with IMR 4064 in a newer version (Mk316?) of M118LR for sniping because of high temperature pressure issues in desert conditions. IMR 4064 and Varget both tend to gain less velocity with charge weight increments than some other powders, making them less sensitive to other pressure influences. However, I've also seen that Varget seems to do this betting in .308 than in .223. Take a look at this article for some more general information on temperature influence. It turns out barrel temperature seems to have more effect than ambient powder temperature, so if your load works well fired at a fairly brisk pace, you should be OK with it. Especially since the pressure is likely modest in most AR chambers.
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Old December 27, 2012, 02:15 PM   #9
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Right now both loads of sniper ammunition are being issued side by side. Mk316 was developed by Crane for SOCOM, and the regular military still uses M118LR with Re15.

Right now the Army has a PIP (Product Improvement Proposal) for M118LR, which the ammo developers at Crane have started shaking their heads, considering that Mk316 is already in the pipeline. It is funny, but the best accuracy loads the military has in the inventory all came out of the Navy, which is arguably a smaller user of small arms than even the Air Force.

Both loads must meet the same accuracy standards, Mk316 was developed to eliminate some of the temperature variability that a shooter/spotter would have to account for to make a first round hit at extended range.

I don't know what powders that Crane tried before settling on IMR4064.

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Old December 27, 2012, 08:09 PM   #10
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Unclenick:

I just bought this program and am working on a load for my .30 Carbine. I am noticing that QL is conservative compared to the manuals. For instance, according to QL, the maximum safe load for the .30 with H110 is 13.7gr, whereas the 2013 Hodgdon manual says the load can safely go up to 15.0gr (which I think is excessive). Of course, I haven't input data from a fired case yet, either.

Have you noticed discrepancies?
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Old December 27, 2012, 10:17 PM   #11
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Pay close attention to bullet type/shank depth/OAL when you compare "Manual" loads vs QL.
Many times that difference will make ... well, a big difference.

(BTW: I just looked at the Hodgdon website and the max they had for any Fireball bullet weight was 14 gr H110)
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Old December 28, 2012, 11:14 AM   #12
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Quote:
(BTW: I just looked at the Hodgdon website and the max they had for any Fireball bullet weight was 14 gr H110)
My mistake. I was thinking .30 Carbine, but wrote .221FB. I corrected my post.
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Old December 28, 2012, 01:05 PM   #13
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Kevin,

Three things:

QuickLOAD's powder data is based on one lot of powder. Burn rates vary several percent with different lots, so you sometimes need to take a chronograph and adjust the powder. See Chris Long's information on tweaking QuickLOAD here.

QuickLOAD's default case capacities are usually on the small side. Until you get a measured case water capacity for cases fired in your chamber, you can expect the results to be on the small side. But, again, you may also need to tweak as above. I've seen quite a number of instances in which QL allowed a charge above book maximum, too. This should not be a surprise as you can find quite a number of examples of load ranges in manuals wherein one manual's maximum load is below another manual's starting load for a same-weight, similar construction bullet.

Finally, QuickLOAD was developed primarily using bottleneck rifle data, and it doesn't play quite as nicely with straight wall cartridges. I recall the QL manual mentions one example where the capacity of a particular straight wall cartridge had to be increased several percent above reality to get good predictions. It is also the case that in small capacity cases it isn't unusual for primers to dislodge the bullet from the case before powder pressure starts to build, altering the burning volume. The .22 Hornet is famous for this, and I've seen a lot of evidence of it happening in .45 Auto, too.

Bottom line is to get out the chronograph and see what you get. Try tweaking by Chris Long's method and see what you come up with.
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Old December 28, 2012, 03:14 PM   #14
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One other thing to note; muzzle velocity from a given load in your barrel.

If the load was developed in a SAAMI spec test barrel and fired from a universal receiver fixed in position as SAAMI does, the velocity your get with the same load will probably be lower if you hold the rifle to your shoulder when its shot. I've seen as much as 60 fps average velocity difference between two people shooting the same rifle and ammo that way; we all hold rifles to our bodies differently And a fixed test barrel that doesn't move back in recoil will have higher velocites for a given load than when fired by us humans.
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Old December 28, 2012, 10:55 PM   #15
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Ben Franklin never patented anything.
The Disney company will send thugs if you make a picture of Mickey Mouse.
Everyone else is in between.
I have not spoken with the Quickload author, but I have spoken with the guy at http://www.neconos.com/ when I update Quickload.
These are nice people, and I am told the author reads the American gun forums.

I have bought two copies of Quickload, one for me in WA and one for me when I am in MT. That is because I don't want to call my wife and ask her to turn on my computer.

I would pay 10X or 20X the current price to get Quickload, if I had to.

Running QL calculations is happening on lots of gun forums. That has got to be a mixture of QL loosing money and QL making money with publicity.

Quote:
Clark Magnuson Post reply 9/23/00

I started out a month a ago to develop a 9mm load. I kept track of
powders, powder charge, bullet, and overall length with a spread sheet.
Someone with Quick Load software helped me with the inner ballistics of
some of the loads.
Bullseye
Unique
Power Pistol
Blue Dot...
Within two months, I bought my own copy of Quickload.
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Old January 4, 2013, 08:24 PM   #16
Okcafe86
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So I said … and bought a copy, just got it today. It really is everything I thought it would be. One question; can i install this copy on more than one computer?

{ Moderator Edit: I know you meant no harm, but the board rules don't allow for abbreviations of the popular curse words, either. We are trying to keep it family friendly so kids will read and learn, too.}
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Old January 4, 2013, 09:13 PM   #17
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depends on the companies license agreement. Most companies will allow software to be installed on a second computer as long as you are only running one computer at a time. Read the license agreement or email the publishers to see if they do also.
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