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Old January 6, 2013, 01:31 AM   #1
jrpitdog
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PLEASE HELP!! settle debate

So I am asking for you all to help settle a debate between a good friend of mine and me. I reloaded about 50 rounds of .45 acp. My friend has a Springfield Ultra Compact 1911, 3 1/2 I think. I have a standard size XD 45ACP. We went shooting the other day at an outdoor range. I was having some feeding issues with the reloads I figure do to bullet shape, so I had my buddy try the reloads to see how they worked in the 1911, they were even worse in his gun (not surprised). Anyways on to my point and question. When we were cleaning up and getting ready to leave we walked through the range to pick up trash and my friend Ryan found a bullet on the ground about 8 feet in front of where he was shooting and it was obviously one of the reload bullets. The bullet had very little damage, in fact it ALMOST looked new except rifling. He immediately said that this bullet just basically dropped out of his barrel, I wasnt so quick to determine that. I am aware that squibs are not that uncommon especially with reloads, but on closer inspection of the bullet I found some ding and dents, not very big or serious but some none the less, too much to be from the manufacturer. So I say somehow it ricocheted back without much damage to show for it. I will give you the other circumstances, first it was below freezing outside the ground was frozen and most of it was covered with a thin layer of packed snow. The range does have a dirt backstop but its more designed for rifles, its far away, so our bullets for sure were hitting the ground before the backstop. In fact, along with shooting at upright targets we were also shooting at targets on the ground. The grounds in the range are covered in trash and debris (its a public no pay range) and also small lava cinder rocks. Oh and I left a link of the bullets I used, they are hollow point but still FMJ, not your typical soft nose. I dont have the actual bullet, Ryan does, I will get if from him and take a picture. So what do you all think, I and Ryan both agree that ricochets can come back to the shooter, but he cannot see it happening without serious damage to the bullet. I say given the circumstances of hard bullet, hard ground, debris, and unexplained dings and dents on bullet I say it did. Sorry so long I wanted to fully explain and give as many variables as I could explain. http://www.berrysmfg.com/product-i14..._200gr_HP.aspx

Last edited by jrpitdog; January 6, 2013 at 01:59 PM.
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Old January 6, 2013, 07:00 AM   #2
itchy1
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"The bullet had very little damage, in fact it ALMOST looked new except rifling"

Doesn't sound like it made any real impact with anything. I believe that you guys were fortunate that this bullet made it all the way out of the barrel. Squibs should never be considered "not that uncommon"--they can be very dangerous and every single precaution should be utilized to prevent them.
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Old January 6, 2013, 08:09 AM   #3
JohnMoses
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If it had enough energy to cycle the gun, it's not a squib. I've found plenty of bullets that look new laying around target areas or dug out of berms. Sometimes a previously fired bullet is disloged by the next one.
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Old January 6, 2013, 09:32 AM   #4
kayakersteve
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Squibs are not common......or you need to re-evaluate your loading practices before you kill your self. A 45acp FMJ into sand will barely scratch other than rifling grooves. Sounds like a normal round to me!
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Old January 6, 2013, 11:26 AM   #5
wvufan1958
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Reloaded shell case's...

I was told you should shoot the same bullet out the gun you reloaded it for.
GUN 1. SHOULD SHOOT THE SAME BULLET OUT OF IT.
GUN 2. SHOULD SHOOT THE SAME BULLET OUT OF IT.
I WAS TOLD THAT A LONG TIME AGO...AND I ALWAYS STAYED
WITH IT...RELOADEDS ONLY LIKE 2 to 4 TIMES ..DEPENTS ON HOW HOT
YOU MAKE THE LOAD. GOOD LIKE. PLEASE SHOOT SAFT...AND LOOK BEON THE TARGET...GOD BLESS

Last edited by wvufan1958; January 6, 2013 at 11:32 AM. Reason: Shooting the same bullet out of the same gun...true or false?
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Old January 6, 2013, 12:52 PM   #6
tahunua001
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agreed, squibs are not very common and are very dangerous.

I shoot into dirt backdrops all the time, and during certain times in the earths rotation around the sun, it gets cold and those backdrops become quite hard however bullets still penetrate the upper layers and still get stuck, that is why dirt backdrops have been deemed safe for use in outdoor ranges. I doubt that bullet actually came from you, I know a number of guys that go out during the cease fire and try to dig up their bullets and during frozen ground this is easier than other times as it's easier to tell which impacts are fresh. someone probably dug it up and dropped it walking back to their stall. if a round had barely enough powder to make it out of either of your barrels you would have noticed a HUGE difference in both noise and recoil, if all of your loads were consistent then there is no way that only one of them was incapable of making it all the way to the target, either none of them made it there or all of them did...

it's elementary, my dear Watson.
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Old January 6, 2013, 01:09 PM   #7
dajowi
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I've been an RSO for years and I've never seen a squib

Pristine bullets that have been fired are found all the time. The Warren Commission had their own "pristine" bullet.
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Old January 6, 2013, 01:44 PM   #8
jrpitdog
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thanks for the replies, first of all I would like to clarify, I do know that squibs happen and are dangerous, I mentioned squibs simply to say that I know its possible there was an error in reloading that may have caused the bullet to barely make it out of the gun (yes not a true squib). Truth be told I have never experienced a true squib in the many years shooting my fathers gun and reloads and the slightly less years of shooting my guns and reloads. Ok so back to the bullet, it was definitely my bullet, the bullets I used are very unique in type and look. Once again the dings and dents it did have in it simply could not of gotten there by just plopping out of the gun, especially since it landed in snow, at least imho. I will try and get the actual bullet and take a few pictures. Thanks again
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Old January 6, 2013, 03:38 PM   #9
Panfisher
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Several years ago in Guns and Ammo or Shooting Times or one of the gun mags, one of the writers decided to build a device to make a bullet simply exit the barrell and drop to the ground, short version is he failed quite miserablely, seems that any bullet with enough energy to exit the barrell had enough pressure to continue downrage. I think he used a .32 revolver and had a LOOONNNGG barrell on it.
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Old January 6, 2013, 06:14 PM   #10
chris in va
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Quote:
I was told you should shoot the same bullet out the gun you reloaded it for.
GUN 1. SHOULD SHOOT THE SAME BULLET OUT OF IT.
GUN 2. SHOULD SHOOT THE SAME BULLET OUT OF IT.
I WAS TOLD THAT A LONG TIME AGO...AND I ALWAYS STAYED
WITH IT...RELOADEDS ONLY LIKE 2 to 4 TIMES ..DEPENTS ON HOW HOT
YOU MAKE THE LOAD. GOOD LIKE. PLEASE SHOOT SAFT...AND LOOK BEON THE TARGET...GOD BLESS
What?
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Old January 6, 2013, 06:31 PM   #11
AndyWest
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He said,

Quote:
GUN 1. SHOULD SHOOT THE SAME BULLET OUT OF IT.
...
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Old January 7, 2013, 04:06 PM   #12
Walt Sherrill
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As other have said, it takes a lot of force to get a round down a barrel, and if it has enough force to do that, it's not going to land anywhere nearby. It's just NOT possible. Doubt this? Try driving a bare bullet down the barrel with a brass rod or stout wooden rod; it's so hard to do that the best wood rods often break.

Just because it looked like one of your reloads doesn't mean it WAS one of your reloads; A lot of handloaded rounds you could find at the range would probably look like yours, if you only looked at the bullet itself...

What you saw was probably a SQUIB that someone else drove out of the gun and left there -- having no real use for it...

Then too, the times I've had a squib round, I've almost always noticed a good bit of junk (unfired powder, etc.) in the chamber and around the ejection port. You would likely have noticed something else wrong if you really had a squib.

.

Last edited by Walt Sherrill; January 7, 2013 at 04:13 PM.
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Old January 7, 2013, 04:16 PM   #13
Mike Irwin
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Couple of years ago I loaded up some really hard cast 255-gr. lead flat nose in my new .45 Long Colt. I ran them out to about 850-900 fps.

I fired a bunch into a water-filled trash can, and some more into a soft dirt bank.

Most of them, after washing to remove the dirt, looked as if they had been fired into pudding. Hardly any marks on them at all other than the rifling.
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Old January 7, 2013, 08:07 PM   #14
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Quote:
So I say somehow it ricocheted back without much damage to show for it.
Quote:
So what do you all think, I and Ryan both agree that ricochets can come back to the shooter, but he cannot see it happening without serious damage to the bullet. I say given the circumstances of hard bullet, hard ground, debris, and unexplained dings and dents on bullet I say it did.
Gentleman if I may.....correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the main debate between the OP and his friend is rather or not the bullet or a bullet can ricochet without or very little damage to it.

I say in order for a bullet to hit somthing and have enough energy to come back almost to where it came from it would have to have a pretty fair amount of damage to it.
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Old January 7, 2013, 08:52 PM   #15
wpsdlrg
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It is VERY possible that this bullet was, in fact, a "bounce back" (that bounced back from the berm/ back stop). This is a lot more common than many suppose.

I once had a jacketed 38 spl. bullet do exactly this, at a local indoor range. The bullet bounced off the back stop, flew back and impacted the rear wall (behind the shooting stations) and dropped to the floor. I found it on the floor, about a foot from the back wall, during one of the breaks. I know that it was MY bullet because (beside the fact that it was the same type I was shooting that day) it had a peculiar dent at the edge of the base....and I almost didn't load it....so I immediately recognized it from memory. The sum total of the damage to the bullet (other than the aforementioned dent in the base and the rifling marks)....was a small dent on the edge of the meplat. The trajectory was obvious upon inspection - the bullet flew from my shooting station (the muzzle of my revolver) to the back stop, came back past my left knee and impacted the back wall.

I still have the bullet.

So, you see, it certainly CAN happen - and the bullet not being badly damaged is NOT necessarily a disqualifying factor.

Edit: By the way, I found that I still have the photos I took of this bullet.....so here they are :
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Bounceback1.jpg (72.2 KB, 12 views)
File Type: jpg Bounceback2.jpg (59.7 KB, 9 views)
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