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Old December 29, 2012, 04:44 PM   #1
chickenmcnasty
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New rifle trouble

Well im out shooting the new rifle. I am using 85 grains of 777 with 350 grain maxi bullets. Any ideas why this is shooting so low? Im about 12'' low at 50 yards.

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Old December 29, 2012, 05:14 PM   #2
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I thought about more powder. But i didnt knoww if it was safe to load it hotter with the 777

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Old December 29, 2012, 05:30 PM   #3
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CM.....

I think I'd get an idea how flat it is shooting.

Try it at 25 yards. Then go to 50. Then go to 150.

If it is shooting flat you should see some proportionality in POI.

My guess is your MV is somewhere around 1500 FPS. So it makes the hundred yard trip in just under 200 milliseconds assuming constant velocity (which probably is not quite right.) The bullet will drop only about 3/4 inch from gravity alone in that time discounting any aerodynamic affects.
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Old December 29, 2012, 05:33 PM   #4
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At 25 im 3-4 inches low

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Old December 29, 2012, 05:35 PM   #5
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Hmmm

I think you have a problem which you can fix with the rear sight.

Three to four inches at 25 yards is about perfect given 12 inches low at 100.

Whadaya wanna bet that at 50 yards it is 6 to 8 low.

I think the rifle/powder/bullet system is working.

But I do think it is worthwhile trying it at 150 yards even if you don't plan to shoot anything that far.

If you POI is more than 18 low at that point, you may be scuffing off speed too quickly. But I doubt that is the case.

These are the musings of a very undertrained novice when it comes to ballistics. But if you just think simple physics and plane geometry it works.
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Old December 29, 2012, 05:44 PM   #6
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Just went and measured and you are spot on...

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Old December 29, 2012, 05:45 PM   #7
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Now what on earth do i do to fix it?

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Old December 29, 2012, 05:53 PM   #8
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Raise the rear sight.
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Old December 29, 2012, 05:57 PM   #9
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I dont think its adjustable. Bear in mind i'm a total bonehead

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Old December 29, 2012, 07:22 PM   #10
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File the front sight down.
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Old December 29, 2012, 07:48 PM   #11
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First the "Practicles" and then the "Particulars"

Sure would help if you let us know what rifle you are shooting and even though low, is it a reasonable group?

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Old December 29, 2012, 07:59 PM   #12
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rifle shoot low

Before we talk filing sightss and adjusting
unless I missed it what kind of rifle and what size.
Traditional old style or newer in line.
A few of the traditional had a fixed buckhorn rear site.
You could drift them sideways in the dovetail slot but not up or down.
Same with the fronts. In which case if it shot low you filed down the front.
But go easy a little can move it a lot.
And use a bench rest for stability.
Others had an elongated front to back buck horn rear sight.
These had a small set screw in the long portion that you screwed in to raise
rear site thus raising th POI. Or screwed out to to lower the rear and the POI.
If they were all the way down, then you would have to file the front site.
These could still be drifted sideways for windage.
Now some newer ones use more modern sights with internal micro adjustments for windage and elevation. These will normally have an external windage and elevation screw or knob.
Some have an elongated buckhorn rear sight. But have a notched ramp that slides the sight up and down.

But I would agree, use a bench rest and start at 25 yd to get centered.
Then determine what your realistically hunting shot will be. If real life max is 50 or 75 yds.
Then zero it for that.
Then move out to a hundred. Determine how high over you have to hold to hit center, but don't move the sight. Same for 50 yd. But hold low.
Remember every rifle has a sweet spot. Where at two given distances, the point of aim and point of impact will be the same as the bullet travels through it's trajectory arc.
I zero with a paper target. Then I practice on a 12" diameter steel plate hanging from a branch or such.
If I can consistently hit it standing, kneeling sitting prone (and I do) then I will have placed the bullet in a kill zone on a deer or elk.
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Old December 29, 2012, 09:43 PM   #13
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I'm sorry i guess i forgot the important details. It's a pedersoli kentucky in .50 that i got from cabelas. I'm pretty dissapointed in it at the moment as i'm not really bigg on having to file the front sight.
I also noticed upon dissasembly (which was a real pain) that the underside of the barrel is not blued and there is an inch long area on the top of the barrel that is losing it's bluing.
I'm really considering taking it back and trading it for a hawken they had. It seems like a more sporterized version as it was really simple and had adj sights and a recoil pad. Maybe that model is better suited to a novice like myself.

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Old December 29, 2012, 10:08 PM   #14
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From what I gather alot of those rifles are not blued on the bottom of the barrel. As far as blueing wearing off so soon thats another story. Don't give up on the old girl just yet, while frustrating you have a traditional rifle. And that is how it was don't back in the day. And like was said before a TINY bit of filing on the front blade will move it alot. And if you still don't like it, clean and oil her up real good, then pack her well and send her to me. I will send you back a "more user friendly" Rifle in exchange
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Old December 29, 2012, 10:34 PM   #15
chickenmcnasty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deerslayer303 View Post
From what I gather alot of those rifles are not blued on the bottom of the barrel. As far as blueing wearing off so soon thats another story. Don't give up on the old girl just yet, while frustrating you have a traditional rifle. And that is how it was don't back in the day. And like was said before a TINY bit of filing on the front blade will move it alot. And if you still don't like it, clean and oil her up real good, then pack her well and send her to me. I will send you back a "more user friendly" Rifle in exchange
Yeah i guess i need to keep it all in perspective. I was frustrated by the manual that had no dissasembly instructions and then that was compounded with problems sighting it in. I've got experience with bows both recurve and compound and with centerfire rifles as well. But i guess i always had someone to show me the details.

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Old December 29, 2012, 10:46 PM   #16
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Quote:
But i guess i always had someone to show me the details.
Well list you location in your profile so it will come up under you name in your posts. You never know who on here you might be close too. I know I for one like shooting with other B.P enthusiasts.
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Old December 29, 2012, 11:18 PM   #17
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I added my location. Thank you for pointing that out.
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Old December 30, 2012, 12:32 AM   #18
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The problem could be two fold, one is that the front sight needs to be lowered which is common.
And the other is your size and how the rifle fits you. If your head and eye doesn't get down far enough on the comb of the stock to be in alignment with the sights, then it could be that your looking down on the sights a little bit.

The front sight should be sighted in with round balls, and then the groups for the heavy conicals could be compared to see how much difference there is.

There is a formula for adjusting the front sight. But the sight would only be adjusted for one load at a particular distance. Any other distance would need to employ some Kentucky windage.
But to reiterate, I wouldn't adjust the front sight soley based on heavy conical loads unless you at least try shooting some groups with round balls too as a comparison.

Quote:
The formula for front sight adjustment or replacement is:
Record:
error on target in inches
distance to target in inches
sight radius in inches.
divide error on target by distance to target,
multiply by sight radius.

If rear sight is adjustable, adjust to middle of it's adjustment limits to allow a range of adjustment up or down after replacing or modifying front sight.

To use your case as an example, I will assume the sight radius on your pistol is 10 inches

error on target= 12" low.
distance to target is 900".
sight radius is 10".
12" divided by 900" = 0.01333 x 10" = 0.133".

The front sight has to be lowered by 0.133 inches or a bit more than 1/8 of an inch (.125)
I tried to tell you about the desirability of having adjustable sights.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...4&postcount=19

However all is not lost if you're willing to either install an adjustable sight set on the gun or at least look into your options for either a new front or rear sight.
I don't know the size of your dovetails, but many European guns have a standard 3/8" dovetail or close to it.
And also, the rear sight is moved in the direction of where the impact needs to go, whereas the front sight is moved in the opposite direction of where you want the impact to move.
In this case, you need either a higher rear sight, or you need to lower your front sight.
You need to decide which is better for alignment with your eye when the rifle is shouldered. A new sight or two new sights is not the end of the world. Fixed metal sights can be fairly inexpensive, but sometimes fitting them into the dovetail can require a little work. And some adjustable sights may require that a hole be drilled & tapped for a mounting screw. If you're not handy, go to a gunsmith or a friend who can help you.
But a simple higher rear sight can be filed down to get the gun sighted in, and the notch can be deepened too.
Track of the Wolf has many types of rear sights, some with step elevators for Hawken style rifles, but I don't know if they will work on your rifle or not.

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Search...h=rear%20sight

They also have an adjustable metric dovetail sight set for imported rifles, but I don't know if it will fit your narrow barrel diameter either. It's made by Investarms. The 2 rear dovetails have a screw hole in it to mount the rear sight into. The sight be a little wider than your barrel flat, but it may still work or may not.
It's completely removable. Ask for their advice about your model, and which higher rear sight that they would recommend. Even if it a fixed or one with an elevator.

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Catego...S-LYMAN-FO-SET

Measure the height of your rear sight so that you can compare the height of any other rear sight that you're interested in. I would think that buckhorn or semi-buckhorn rear sights can be relatively taller. They're designed for faster target acquistion for hunting rather than precision target shooting. Look at what they have in that style.
Then call them for advice about different sight heights.

Dixiegun.com is another company that has a lot of sights.

Last edited by arcticap; December 30, 2012 at 12:52 AM.
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Old December 30, 2012, 12:49 AM   #19
chickenmcnasty
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I really wanted to get the one you suggested from dixie, but the $325 in cabelas gift cards that I got for christmas were the deciding factor. Please don't take it as an insult. I value all of the information I have gotten from here greatly
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Old December 30, 2012, 12:52 AM   #20
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I know how it is, I use Cabela's gift cards too.
I'm trying to figure out what you need to do.
A new higher rear sight could be the way to go, to say the least.
Or else your front sight may become too small if it needs to be filed down too much to get it sighted in.
My gut feeling is that a higher rear sight should be somewhat more comfortable for providing better eye alignment when the rifle is shouldered and held to aim.
And the original sight[s] can always can always be put back on if you end up selling the gun down the road.

Last edited by arcticap; December 30, 2012 at 12:59 AM.
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Old December 30, 2012, 01:00 AM   #21
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Will Cabela's take the gun back if you're not satisfied with the sights?
Maybe that's another option.
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Old December 30, 2012, 01:06 AM   #22
chickenmcnasty
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I'm not sure if they will return bp rifles or not. I also don't know how they feel about the sight issue as compared to the bluing issue.

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Old December 30, 2012, 01:07 AM   #23
arcticap
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Another idea is to try putting on of those removable temporary rubber butt pads on the stock to see if lengthening the pull makes the gun fit better and helps with the sight alignment any.
That's a possibilty that the longer butt stock would place your head farther back and more in alignment with the low rear sight.
Then maybe shoot some groups with balls and see how it groups at 50 - 75 yards.
If it's only low by 6-8 inches then that's not too hard to adjust by simply filing the front sight down by 1/8 of an inch or whatever.
The only other option for you is to exchange it for an inline rifle that fits you and has adjustable sights, or better yet a scope.
Traditional guns are great for round ball shooting, but many of us use a scoped inline for hunting.
Open sights are open sights and present the same hunting challenge.
It's all about a clean trigger squeeze and accurate shooting on demand no matter what gun is being fired at a game animal. The gun doesn't fire all by itself but requires marksmanship skills.

Last edited by arcticap; December 30, 2012 at 01:28 AM.
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Old December 30, 2012, 01:23 AM   #24
chickenmcnasty
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I really want to avoid inlines. I like the feel and challenge of hunting with more traditional weapons. I love going into the woods with my recurve, and feel like the same would be true for these rifles.
I will get some round balls on order as no one sells them in town. I think in the meantime i will check into sights. I just cant see cabelas taking the rifle as a return. I cant really blame them

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Old December 30, 2012, 01:31 AM   #25
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I know what you mean. An inexpensive Traditions Deer hunter wouldn't be giving you this problem, and that's about a $200 traditional gun. But it has adjustable plastic sights and a straight pistol grip stock, with a shorter 1 in 48" barrel.
Sometimes the Deer hunters will shoot sabots and conicals better than round balls, especially at higher velocity.
The Pedersoli Kentucky may be the opposite and be a good round ball shooter.
So don't give up just yet.

Last edited by arcticap; December 30, 2012 at 01:37 AM.
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