The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > General Discussion Forum

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old January 7, 2013, 12:06 PM   #201
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 6,873
Quote:
If you think about it, firearms evolved tremendously from the writing of the 2nd amendment through the end of the civil war. Yet, I know of no mention or proposal of "gun control - disarming the citizens" following the civil war.
The first gun control laws were written to prohibit slaves, and later, "freedmen" from owning firearms. The "freedmen" prohibitions were written after the Civil War ...... if you don't know about them, you have not looked very hard.
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old January 7, 2013, 12:11 PM   #202
SPEMack618
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 21, 2010
Location: Central Georgia
Posts: 1,452
There were laws in some Georgia counties, mine being one, that prohibited pistols other than Colt or Remington revovlers.

The county archivist explained this to me in that those were expensive, high tickets items back then that no freedmen nor sharecropper could afford.

Haves and have nots again.
__________________
NRA Life Member
Big Sister: "You should be sponsored by Allen"
Me: "If you can't shoot good, at least look good walking to the firing line."
Big Sister: "Can you not afford a Pelican? Then buy an Allen gun bag."
SPEMack618 is offline  
Old January 7, 2013, 01:33 PM   #203
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,388
Quote:
What they had in mind was ensuring that the government and its minions didn't have sole access to the means of coercive force.
Exactly the wording I was looking for. Our own Marko Kloos wrote an excellent essay on the matter called Why the Gun Is Civilization that is well worth reading on the matter.

Quote:
Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that’s it.

In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.
This applies not only to interactions between individuals, but to interactions between individuals and the state.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Old January 7, 2013, 01:44 PM   #204
trespass
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2004
Location: oklahoma
Posts: 341
federalist papers

some of the principals in drafting our constitution spoke their minds long ago.
The Federalist papers.
I believe in original intention. Is common now in Con Law circles to speak of a "living document"..all this means is that the constitution says what we say it says. Thus it means nothing, but is a thing of putty to be modified by men in power to suit themselves..OR it is a superstructure...a steel frame upon which all else is hung. I believe it was and is the latter..a document of steel
and that our founder's knew well what is was to be at the mercy of armed power and intended their grandchildren to be and remain free. The 2nd amendment is not about deer hunting or target practice and I do not see how any rational person could think otherwise. The brown bess WAS the assault rifle of its age!
"Shall we ever for a moment or in the least degree
surrender our conscience to the legislator? Why has every man a conscience then?"
this question of Thoreau goes to the heart of it. While we may submit to the government in many areas...there is a point at which it is legitimate, human,
and right for a free people to say I will not. Our founders stood on their I will Not..the issue for us is will we?
trespass is offline  
Old January 7, 2013, 01:47 PM   #205
coachteet
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 7, 2008
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 122
I have heard the argument from both pro and anti gunners that civilians would be "no match" for the mighty US military. I try to avoid mall ninja-type conversations, in general. But I think it's easy to say that, because our military has many advantages over civilians, that somehow that translates into a hopeless defeat.

It would be wildly unlikely that there would somehow be a war between the US military and it's civilian population. But...(Coach dons his mall ninja hat) Say the president passed an executive order that banned all firearms and required the confiscation of all privately owned firearms, and the military faithfully obeyed this order to a man. Short of levelling every city and town, I doubt very much they could disarm Texas, let alone the entire country. Not before they either ran out of people, or ran out of will. Think of the logistics! Plenty of people would hand over their firearms, no doubt. But many wont. So it would be urban warfare, house to house...apartment to apartment... tens of thousands of barricaded, armed individuals. Ask a person who has actually been in combat if they thought the military could forcefully disarm the entire US population. They would laugh at you.
coachteet is offline  
Old January 7, 2013, 02:38 PM   #206
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 6,873
Quote:
Ask a person who has actually been in combat if they thought the military could forcefully disarm the entire US population. They would laugh at you.
Laughin' over here, Boss!

Short of chem/nuke/bio weapon use, they could not defeat a determined US population, and they'd have to kill them to do that. There's just are not that many in uniform these days.
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old January 7, 2013, 02:51 PM   #207
Dr Big Bird PhD
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2012
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 778
Literally every single friend I have that is ROTC, Army, Navy, National Guard, or Veteran shares my views as strongly as I do.

Might be different for others, may be entirely different. Just my personal experience.
__________________
I told the new me,
"Meet me at the bus station and hold a sign that reads: 'Today is the first day of the rest of your life.'"
But the old me met me with a sign that read: "Welcome back."
Who you are is not a function of where you are. -Off Minor
Dr Big Bird PhD is offline  
Old January 7, 2013, 03:02 PM   #208
rickyrick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2010
Location: Mesquite Jungle Desert, West Texas, USA
Posts: 2,467
I was in the army and I would say no I wouldn't have followed that order, but I probably would have, begrudgingly have you, if under orders.

I reviewed Katrina videos this weekend, and yes, the troops forcibly disarmed civilians. They kicked in doors and the whole nine yards. They weren't happy about it, but they did it all the same. They did wealthy and poor neighborhoods.

In the same turn, I wouldn't get into a battle with US troops or law enforcement under orders either.
__________________
Navin R. Johnson: "He hates these cans!!!! Stay away from the cans!!!!"
rickyrick is offline  
Old January 7, 2013, 03:14 PM   #209
SPEMack618
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 21, 2010
Location: Central Georgia
Posts: 1,452
I was in and around New Orleans post Katrina as newly minted 18 year old PFC, but I didn't here about the confisication debacle until way later. Like years later.

I love the Army, and I love being a Soldier, but I don't think anything would have me rip off my American flag patch and walk away in discuss so quick as an unlawful order like that.

(And maybe slap on a Gadsen flag patch and run about shouting Wolverines)
__________________
NRA Life Member
Big Sister: "You should be sponsored by Allen"
Me: "If you can't shoot good, at least look good walking to the firing line."
Big Sister: "Can you not afford a Pelican? Then buy an Allen gun bag."
SPEMack618 is offline  
Old January 7, 2013, 03:21 PM   #210
drail
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2008
Posts: 3,150
I am sure they would have approved of whatever type of weapon required to address the problem. They were quite clear though on addressing the problem. Defeating an armed populace is always going to be hideously expensive. We didn't really "defeat" the British, they gave up and left. If you can't beat them make it cost them dearly. The Russians learned this in Afghanistan and we learned it in Vietnam. It is the reason why guerilla warfare works as well as it does.

Last edited by drail; January 7, 2013 at 03:26 PM.
drail is offline  
Old January 7, 2013, 03:23 PM   #211
rickyrick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2010
Location: Mesquite Jungle Desert, West Texas, USA
Posts: 2,467
I didn't hear about it until like a year or two later when Texas passed laws prohibiting disarming of civilians during emergencies.

Texas has gone a long way in recent years to better the RKBA, I'm curious how this is going to conflict with new federal restrictions. Texas constitutional RKBA is even clearer on the matter than the us 2a
__________________
Navin R. Johnson: "He hates these cans!!!! Stay away from the cans!!!!"

Last edited by rickyrick; January 7, 2013 at 03:26 PM. Reason: I hate auto correct sometimes!!!
rickyrick is offline  
Old January 7, 2013, 03:33 PM   #212
D.W. Drang
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 25, 2001
Location: The Deepest Pacific NorthWet
Posts: 590
Quote:
Literally every single friend I have that is ROTC, Army, Navy, National Guard, or Veteran shares my views as strongly as I do.
And literally every single one of Pauline Kael's friends voted against Richard Nixon.

I retired 12 years ago, and things have changed in the Army a lot since then, but I wold not then nor would I now swear that no one would obey such orders.
There would probably be a lot of "monkey wrenching" going on, pretending to follow the orders while actually coming back and saying "Sorry, sir, no one home..."
But I have little faith in the officer corps, and many senior NCOs*, not to say "Yes sir, yes sir, three bags full sir" and order the untermenshcen loaded into the cattle cars. For the children.


*Being made company First Sergeant while a Sergeant First Class was a real eye-opener, ruined my impression of Sergeants Major, and settled the question of whether I would stay as long as Uncle let me or retire at 20. 20 it was...
I hate to disillusion any of you who ares till serving.
__________________
Quote:
Imagine you're an idiot. Now imagine that you're in Congress--but I repeat myself."
S. Clemens
http://thecluemeter.blogspot.com/
D.W. Drang is offline  
Old January 7, 2013, 03:43 PM   #213
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 6,873
I've been out a good long while, and I am quite sure that some of the guys I served with would have saluted and said "Three Bags, FULL!", kicked in the doors and said "Give it up!"


I also am pretty sure that some of the guys I served with would have fragged their NCO's and Officers, if they had ever had access to grenades ....
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old January 7, 2013, 04:03 PM   #214
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,825
While defeating an armed populace may be difficult, the British were not beaten by guerrila warfare by a population armed with Kentucky rifles. They were beaten using old-world battlefield tactics by men trained in methods laid down by a Prussian and armed mostly with smoothbore muskets. We also had a little help on the side by the French, who, and not for the last time, kindly donated a few weapons to tide us over.

For those of you who were in the army x-number of years ago, you shouldn't imagine that the way it was when you were in was the way it always was or the way it always would be. For a few cases of the army being used against civilians, read about the bonus marchers in Washington when McArthur was chief of staff or even earlier when suffragettes came to town.

I'm not saying what's right or wrong (who am I to say?) but just pointing out a few footnotes of history.
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Old January 7, 2013, 05:27 PM   #215
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 6,873
Horsefeathers.

Quote:
While defeating an armed populace may be difficult, the British were not beaten by guerrila warfare by a population armed with Kentucky rifles. They were beaten using old-world battlefield tactics by men trained in methods laid down by a Prussian and armed mostly with smoothbore muskets. We also had a little help on the side by the French, who, and not for the last time, kindly donated a few weapons to tide us over.
Horsefeathers. Had Burgoyne been allowed to advance from Ticonderoga to Albany uncontested and in the strength he left there with in July of 1777, he'd have smashed Schuyler's Army (smaller in July than his by 1,000 regulars) to flinders, long before Bemis Heights could be fortified, and long before the Militia successes at Stanwix/Oriskany in August, and before the Jane Mcrea incident at the end of July. During the whole of the campaign, Burgoyne was hampered by poor communication with Howe in New York (his messengers repeatedly caught and hanged by rebel irregulars), and his strength frittered away by small battles that delayed him and by the desertion of most of his Indian allies ......

...... Meanwhile, Gates' army swelled to twice it's size with nearly every militia member in a month's walking distance, and Morgan's Rifles' and other units of the Northern Department's arrival at the end of August ..... without the efforts of militia units like the Tryon County Militia, Starks' Green mountain Boys, and countless other irregulars, there would have been no Hubbardton, no Bennington, no Oriskany, no Freeman's Farm, no Bemis Heights ...... just two more defeats (Stanwix and Albany) of Continental Regulars by Brittish Regulars and their Loyalist and Indian allies ..... and without those victories, there would have been no French support..... no French Fleet at Yorktown.... no victory, no United States......
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old January 7, 2013, 06:28 PM   #216
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
BT, while I am enjoying jimbob86's history lesson (which seems about right to me across the board), I notice that you still have been unable to list any expansions of federal power of which you do not approve...
MLeake is offline  
Old January 7, 2013, 07:01 PM   #217
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 6,873
Forgive the History lesson- besides growing up with a History teacher for a mother, I had to write a college level term paper on the Battles of Saratoga/Burgoyne Campaign of 1777 ....... I LOVE Military History.


Granted, the defeat at Camden was in part due to failure of militia (but mostly due to Gates' poor tactics- he was a **** poor combat leader, and it would have been better for all concerned had Benedict Arnold killed him in duel sparked by a charge of cowardice after Saratoga, IMO) ..... Gen'l Daniel Morgan manged to use milita very effectively 6 months later at Cowpens .....
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/

Last edited by jimbob86; January 7, 2013 at 07:38 PM.
jimbob86 is offline  
Old January 7, 2013, 07:07 PM   #218
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Yeah, my maternal uncle, after leaving Army active duty following his tour in 'Nam, became a history teacher. He spent several summer vacations from his public school job, mobilizing for the Army Reserve, to teach military history (at Fort Dix, IIRC). My mother was also a history teacher, so road trips when I was a kid often involved visits to places like Bunker Hill, Yorktown, Gettysburg, Appomattox, Mystic, the USS CONSTITUTION... You get the idea.
MLeake is offline  
Old January 7, 2013, 07:11 PM   #219
Dre_sa
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2005
Location: Left coast
Posts: 587
Not just guns, but weapons in general.

Arms means weapons. Firearms means guns.

My interpretation is that they intended for us to keep weapons of any and all varieties, and the right to bear those weapons means we are allowed to carry them with us, and use them if necessary. at least it should.
__________________
Imagine what I would do, if I could do all I can.
Dre_sa is offline  
Old January 7, 2013, 07:26 PM   #220
Aguila Blanca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 6,487
Quote:
My interpretation is that they intended for us to keep weapons of any and all varieties, and the right to bear those weapons means we are allowed to carry them with us, and use them if necessary. at least it should.
Google Tench Coxe, and click the hit that takes you to his page on Wikiquotes.

Something about "all the terrible implements of the soldier ..."

You'll find it. I keep posting it, then I forget which threads I cited it in. (Age does that to you.)
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old January 7, 2013, 07:40 PM   #221
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 6,873
BT ..... ummm your Prussian, one Friederich Wilhelm von Stueben, did not even land in the Colonies until late Sept. 1777 ...... and did not hit Valley Forge until Feb.'78 ..... he had almost no effect on fighting in the North, which was effectively over before his Blue Book came out and was adopted as the standard of training.

The only major engagement in the North his training might have had an effect on was Monmouth Court House, and it was a draw.

In the South, Irregulars and and Militia carried the rebel cause until mid 1780, when Stueben "trained" and Gates "led" Americans got their heads handed to them at Camden .....

Granted, the defeat at Camden was in part due to failure of militia (but mostly due to Gates' poor tactics- he was a **** poor combat leader, and it would have been better for all concerned had Benedict Arnold killed him in duel sparked by a charge of cowardice after Saratoga, IMO) ..... Gen'l Daniel Morgan manged to use milita very effectively 6 months later at Cowpens .....
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old January 7, 2013, 08:20 PM   #222
PH/CIB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2007
Location: Iowa
Posts: 281
Better to be a dead Lion fighting for freedom with the sweet taste of blood in your mouth than a slaughtered lamb.

Disarmament whether incrementally or spontaneously leads to obsequiousness.

Disarmament is servitude.

I have heard it said, “In France the Government fears the People, in America the People fear the Government.”

I fear Martial Law, while if the issues are clear cut I think the Military and Law Enforcement would stand with the People, but governments are masters of deceit and propaganda and at creating false flag events, staging an event and then blaming it on someone else to get the desired results, which could sway the Military and Law Enforcement to stand with the government and not the People.

I do not understand my Country-men, anyone who studies history should not trust any government anywhere.
__________________
Life Member,,,Military Order of the Purple Heart, Veterans of Foreign Wars, American Legion, Amvets, Disabled American Veterans, 173rd Airborne Skysoldier Association, National Rifle Association, Member,,,IDPA, USPSA, Iowa Sheriffs and Deputies Association,,Website http://www.handgunholsters.net
PH/CIB is offline  
Old January 7, 2013, 09:19 PM   #223
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 6,873
Quote:
I do not understand my Country-men, anyone who studies history should not trust any government anywhere.
Ah, but by and large, they do not study history these days- they take "Social Studies".
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old January 7, 2013, 09:30 PM   #224
SPEMack618
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 21, 2010
Location: Central Georgia
Posts: 1,452
Social Studies and Civics and Economics until my Junior year when I finally took a U.S. History class.

To look at the few pages devoted to WWII, one would think that the U.S. was victorious on the shoulders of Rosy the Riveter, the 442nd RCT, and the 332nd Fighter Group. Oh, and Paul Tibbets and Curtis LeMay were war criminals.

It was nauseating.
__________________
NRA Life Member
Big Sister: "You should be sponsored by Allen"
Me: "If you can't shoot good, at least look good walking to the firing line."
Big Sister: "Can you not afford a Pelican? Then buy an Allen gun bag."
SPEMack618 is offline  
Old January 7, 2013, 10:30 PM   #225
Dre_sa
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2005
Location: Left coast
Posts: 587
Found that Tench Coxe quote that was mentioned.

Quote:
The power of the sword, say the minority..., is in the hands of Congress. My friends and countrymen, it is not so, for The powers of the sword are in the hands of the yeomanry of America from sixteen to sixty. The militia of these free commonwealths, entitled and accustomed to their arms, when compared with any possible army, must be tremendous and irresistible. Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom. Congress has no power to disarm the militia. Their swords and every terrible implement of the soldier are the birthright of Americans. The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments but where, I trust in God, it will always remain, in the hands of the people.
__________________
Imagine what I would do, if I could do all I can.
Dre_sa is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.15806 seconds with 7 queries