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Old January 4, 2013, 03:44 PM   #151
johnwilliamson062
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One major problem in this argument is the argument has long been framed by "our" lobbying representatives as 2A is a gift from the founders. That is not what the founders intended for sure. 2A is an acknowledgement of a natural right which can not morally be infringed upon and the establishment of a rule to impede such infringements.

The government who has power to give has power to take and "we" gave them both.
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Old January 4, 2013, 04:23 PM   #152
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Yes, really.
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Old January 4, 2013, 04:36 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Train
You'll have to give me some time to think about federal powers that I do not like. Of course, I might throw in some state and local powers, too, just to keep it interesting.

What I keep trying to imply here, which you may have missed, is to get people away from the idea of an armed rebellion. Keep in mind that you won't get anywhere without the support of either the armed forces or the national guard (the militia). Also, I'm trying to dissuade people from thinking that government is a necessary evil. The only time in the past when there was a temporarily successful rebellion, all that happened, government-wise, was the formation of yet another government that was hardly any different from the other one.

On the other hand, Mae West is quoted as saying that when she had to choose between two evils, she liked to pick the one she hadn't tried before. That's about all it would amount to.
I have to agree that the idea of an armed insurrection is no longer a viable option for restoring or maintaining a constitutional authority. Unless, as you point out, the armed services were on the lay-mans side. The quotes about how the people of America make up the most powerful army in the world are long since outdated. We do not have and have no hope of attaining in any significant numbers the type of weaponry that would be required to win a full-on battle against the armed forces of this nation. If they joined the hypothetical rouge government that we'd be trying to restore to constitutional authority, we'd be AT BEST like the armed rebels of Syria, and far worse off in reality, as they have access to significantly more firepower than American civilians and are facing a foe with exponentially less power.

However, I disagree about government. It is absolutely a necessary evil. Power corrupts. Government is power. Many individuals and certainly the beast as a whole are massively corrupt.
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Old January 4, 2013, 10:38 PM   #154
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We do not have and have no hope of attaining in any significant numbers the type of weaponry that would be required to win a full-on battle against the armed forces of this nation.
A full-on Wolverines vs. Cuban Soviets scenario is certainly far fetched. However, we're forgetting the deterrent power of an armed citizenry. If the act of carrying out tyrannical edicts carries a significant element of physical risk, those charged with following such orders will be less enthusiastic about following them.

Let's also bear in mind that the vast majority of LEO's and soldiers I've met would leave their posts if their orders began to contravene their oath to uphold the Constitution. A despotic government would quickly find itself understaffed and insulated.
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Old January 4, 2013, 11:08 PM   #155
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Some people seem to have the image of a rag tag force of people with hunting rifles and a few ARs facing tanks and helicopter gun ships.

You can't enforce a police state with fighter jets, tanks, drones, etc. You need boots on the ground. The bullet proof head hasn't been invented yet. Most body armor can't stop high powered rifle bullets at fairly close range.

People with rifles and improvised weapons can't get to the modern military and hurt them? Insurgents get to the high tech modern military all the time in Afghanistan and Iraq. Not to mention politicians. Speaking of politicians, what are all the politicians going to do during a hypothetical USA insurrection, live in tanks and underground bunkers, or play dodge the .308?

No, 100,000,000 firearms in a country where there are 1,500,000 military and Law Enforcement personnel combined total, is a credible threat. Even if only 1% of the 100,000,000 firearms owners took part in insurrection, it would be a bloody mess.

Like I've said before, insurrection, revolution, whatever one wants to call it is unlikely. However, to say that a citizenry armed with high powered rifles, isn't a threat to a tyrannical police state, is absolutely wrong.
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Old January 5, 2013, 01:48 AM   #156
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Let's also bear in mind that the vast majority of LEO's and soldiers I've met would leave their posts if their orders began to contravene their oath to uphold the Constitution. A despotic government would quickly find itself understaffed and insulated.
I really would like to believe that .... and then I saw video of Americans in uniform disarming Americans in NOLA during the Katrina aftermath.

I would not follow such orders: You have to stand for something, or you'll fall for anything.
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Old January 5, 2013, 01:56 AM   #157
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Keep posting. The NSA is taking names and you'll be the first ones thrown in jail.
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Old January 5, 2013, 02:38 AM   #158
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To say that one person could kill 30 without being taken (assuming that is a reference to the semi-auto, hi cap mag theory), is incorrect to a degree. Had one person been a law abiding, ccw weapon carrier who owned, carried and practiced with their well maintained firearm, wouldn't that put a quick and decisive end to that thought?

The fact that must be included in any movie theater, gun free school zone, or shopping mall shooting spree is, they are target zones for the cowards that go there to shoot because they know them to have low or no potential immediate retaliation.

Ever see a mass slaying at a gun show, FOP convention, airport, court room, city hall, American Legion Post, etc.? What would be the factor that makes mass killer's stay away? Good people with guns.

Bottom line is, the amendment is written broadly for a reason. Arms would include those types of arms relevant to the time.
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Old January 5, 2013, 02:58 AM   #159
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I'm sure now that the NSA was typed, somewhere in DC a computer just kicked on, the hard drive is whirring away and information is being gathered. Fortunately the fiscal cliff will put the employee in charge of reviewing that information out of work.
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Old January 5, 2013, 08:22 AM   #160
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then I saw video of Americans in uniform disarming Americans in NOLA during the Katrina aftermath.
Many of those uniforms were being worn by hired mercenaries and members of the California Highway Patrol who'd been deputized and brought in.
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Old January 5, 2013, 09:33 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by Tom Servo
Many of those uniforms were being worn by hired mercenaries and members of the California Highway Patrol who'd been deputized and brought in.
Mercenaries? As in non-LEO? This is the first mention I've ever seen of any "mercenaries" being deployed in Noo Orleans after Katrina. As to the CHiPs ... they are LEO, whether we like it or not.

Tom, your local LEOs might take their oath seriously, but I feel pretty confident that those in most larger cities would cheerfully go around confiscating firearms if given the order. I chatted up a city police officer in a Burger King at lunch yesterday while his partner fielded a phone call. My question was about a headline article recommending armed security in schools, but his attitude in responding tells me that his attitude goes beyond schools.

"Only the police should be allowed to have guns," was his answer. "There are too many guns out there and too many crazy people."

This guy couldn't even form a coherent sentence in English, so I knew I was dealing with an inner city cop. The officers in most of the smaller towns around here have graduated from college, and many have degrees specifically in criminal justice. In the city, they keep lowering the hiring standards so members of various minorities can pass the qualification exam. This guy was proof that their diversity program is successful.
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Old January 5, 2013, 11:18 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca
This is the first mention I've ever seen of any "mercenaries" being deployed in Noo Orleans after Katrina.
Blackwater - claimed to have a DHS contract (probable given security work in Iraq) and also did a spiffy business with NOLA's wealthier citizens. Some were deputized by Louisiana authorities. Blackwater was also headquartered in NC, which has quaint laws allowing "company police."
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Old January 5, 2013, 01:26 PM   #163
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Keep posting. The NSA is taking names and you'll be the first ones thrown in jail.
There are worse things than jail.

The demise of our Republic would be one.
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Old January 5, 2013, 01:33 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by dorc#1
Keep posting. The NSA is taking names and you'll be the first ones thrown in jail.
Okay Alex, I'll be on the look out for black helicopters with the Bilderberg Group logo on them.
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Old January 5, 2013, 01:40 PM   #165
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The US military has not operated without a secure rear support area in living memory. That alone makes a HUGE difference. Attack helicopters only work if you have a secure airbase in range of your target to send them from. Planes don't really work all that well at all, especially if your relatively delicate smart munitions factories are facing sabotage.

If the Afghanis with no money, no manufacturing base, minimal external support, AND facing NATO secure rear support areas can mount a successful insurgency, I don't see how US citizens could not possibly do it.

"mercenaries" were absolutely deployed in NO following Katrina. More than likely in other domestic situations, but there is a mountain of easily accessible info regarding their deployment following Katrina.
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Old January 5, 2013, 11:43 PM   #166
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I am in Louisiana. During Katrina, there were police officers and some national guardsmen involved in these home invasions. This is the first I heard of mercenaries.
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Old January 5, 2013, 11:45 PM   #167
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There were mercenaries at gas stations and supermarkets though for sure.
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Old January 5, 2013, 11:57 PM   #168
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This is the first I heard of mercenaries.
Blackwater was there.
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Old January 6, 2013, 12:15 AM   #169
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yeah, they were there. If you look on Wikipedia, you can read about them and see a couple of images.

Everybody went to Katrina. ICE, CBP, the Georgia Guard, myself included, everybody.
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Old January 6, 2013, 12:24 AM   #170
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"Only the police should be allowed to have guns,"
I once saw a movie where only the police and military had guns.


It was called "Schindler's List"
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Old January 6, 2013, 12:30 AM   #171
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We are quickly turning our Country into a Chicken Coop, guarded by a Government of Wolves.

I trust the Government, about as far as I can throw Mt. Rushmore.

If the Founding Fathers, not sheepdogs but Lions, had come back during our lifetimes and observed the Government, while I would not advocate this as I have experienced War before, I am sure we would be in the middle of the 2nd American Revolution.

I am sure the Founding Fathers meant for us the Citizenry to be armed with the weapons of our time, just as they were armed with the weapons of their time.
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Old January 6, 2013, 08:05 AM   #172
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I still haven't made up my mind about what it is about the present governments (of those I live under--there are thousands of others) that I don't like. Perhaps you all (all of you all) could make some suggestions for me to ponder.

Now to whoever it was that mentioned a rouge government: did you mean "red?"

I still have lots of problems with people's general thinking on the subject. For instance, if you get rid of all the old politicians (and I think they are in fact all old), then where are you going to get the new one? Are there elections going on that I don't know about? Likewise, the armed forces: where did they come from? Are they not American, too, along with the police, very few of whom are federal. I'm not sure any comparison with Afganistan in any way has any relevance here. My new son-in-law is supposed to be going there within the next few months, so perhaps I can get some inside information from him. In the meantime, my wife's first cousin works in Kabul as a civilian and not for the United States. I think he'll be home sometime in the next month (he's very footloose) and I'll bring up the subject with him if I see him. He has also lived in Yugoslavia before the civil war there and correctly predicted what would happen. He's been in Afganistan for a long time and has even written a book on the subject.

I've also heard that firearms laws in Germany were liberalized by Hitler. Can it be that lots of things I've heard are false?
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Old January 6, 2013, 10:59 AM   #173
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I've also heard that firearms laws in Germany were liberalized by Hitler. Can it be that lots of things I've heard are false?
The gun control laws requiring registration of civilian owned firearms were put in 1928 by the Weimar Government (interestingly enough, in an effort to disarm the Brownshirts) ..... but it was these same registration lists that were used to round up all the Jewish Gun owners 10 years later when they outlawed gun ownership by Jews in 1938 (and added a "sporting purposes" requirement for non-Nazi Party members).

I know these to be true:
1. If you give someone a tool, they'll look for a way to use it.
2. Power Corrupts, and Absolute Power corrupts Absolutely.
3. The most danagerous man is the one who claims to be doing things to you "for your own good."
4. Men are flawed, and the Government is made of men. An all powerful Government by men "for my own good" is about as bad as it gets.
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Old January 6, 2013, 11:29 AM   #174
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BlueTrain, you offer a false dichotomy. Something you heard does not have to be false (though it could have been). You could have heard or remembered incorrectly; you could have remembered incompletely; you could have added your own assumptions on top of what you heard.

Anybody could have done the same. This is one reason why few things are black and white.

I am concerned, though, that you still cannot come up with any expansions of federal power that you do not like. This does make it hard to accept some of your other arguments, as it implies a kool-aid level of big government fandom, and loss of perspective.

Hopefully you can come up with some reasonable concerns about federal power grabs, if only to prove you know how to look at things from other perspectives.
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Old January 6, 2013, 02:51 PM   #175
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Are you folks only worried about the federal government or all the others as well? I mention that because I believe there is more corruption at state and local levels, although that does not imply abuse of power. There can be abuses of power with no corruption whatsoever.
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