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Old December 23, 2012, 05:24 PM   #1
ligonierbill
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AR-15: Let's have some debating points

Here is a bolt action/revolver guy who finally went (a little) over to pistols. (There is a Glock 23 in the night stand and a KelTec P-32 in my pocket.) A couple years ago, curiosity and some money "burning a hole in my pocket" led me to a garden variety AR-15. I like it. It's fun to shoot and pretty accurate. I confess to buying a 10-round mag - the standard 30 rounders (got several loaded in the safe) get in the way on the bench. Now, yes I can hunt with it. I have much better hunting rifles. Yes, I can defend my home with it. If I feel the need for more than the Glock, I have a short-barrelled 870 (I prefer #4 buck). So, how is it more than a lethal toy? Not agreeing with, or even debating, the anti's, who seem to be competing for "most vitriol in one sentence". The folks I would like to speak to are those who don't usually give the issue much thought, but are now. Other than, "I want it and I have the right", what argument would you put to a skeptical neutral? They're thinking, "What harm would it do to ban these things?" Help make the case.
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Old December 23, 2012, 06:32 PM   #2
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The big problem is the folks that while not really anti-gun but wouldn't mind an AR ban, just simply don't understand guns. This makes them prone to buying into some of the argument the anti-gun folks make. They're not stupid, just ignorant of things that we here truly understand. If you only know one side of an argument, it's hard I make an informed decision.
I always use a NASCAR/family car comparison. Just because I paint my sedan up to look like a NASCAR doesn't make it a race car. It just looks like one and because my AR may look like what the Armed Forces carry, it's not a true assault rifle. It simply a semi-automatic that if it had a beautiful wood stock, would still be the same exact rifle. If they understand that comparison and express interest then I explain why I think banning a particular style of weapon based solely on appearance or trying to curb violent crime by only addressing the tool used and not it's true causes is what I believe to be a pointless endevour that benefits no one. I just present it as my opinion and don't push hard, get emotional or hysterical or give a lecture on the 2A or slippery slope scenarios...just getting my basic point across has worked well for me. It gets the foot in the door, and frequently leads to follow up questions later. If I can at least get them to question what they hear from one side, it makes it easier for me to get the viewpoint of the other side across.
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Old December 24, 2012, 02:14 AM   #3
coronatj
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First post. I'm here doing research on AR's. Looking at target shooting only, no zombie crap, or the need to defend my country against foreign invaders. Not even looking at a home defense gun. I figure that is what my pistols and dogs are for.

Just a plain and simple target gun, and I'm looking at the AR because I like the versatility of the rifle. And, yea it looks cool.

But, to the point, I'm not so sure that we need gun control as much as we need people control. I hear people complain about having to wait for a time period, before being allowed to get their gun. I'd like to see a more vigorous waiting period, where mental health is checked, and there are minimum standards that have to be met.

Yea. I said it.
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Old December 24, 2012, 02:57 AM   #4
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Reasons why I have my AR: Home defense, target practice, varmint hunting, the ability to purchase compatible upper receivers to hunt medium game without objection, fun, and most importantly... Because I wanted to.
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Old December 24, 2012, 03:54 AM   #5
Sport45
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The real question isn't why anyone needs one it's why they should be taken away.

If 30% of Americans really liked the AR style rifles and had no use for anything else and,
30% of Americans liked bolt action rifles and had no use for anything else and,
30% of Americans liked handguns and had no use for anything else then:

It becomes easy for the folk that want to ban firearms altogether to divide and conquer since no individual group represents a majority of the populace even though together they may.
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Old December 24, 2012, 09:21 AM   #6
Carne Frio
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You make a very good point. Every time I run across a
Fudd, I try to explain that to them. I know shooters who
are pro gun but anti hunting and explain to them that we
need to stick together or we will fail.
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Old December 24, 2012, 09:25 AM   #7
Vireye
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I use my Stag Arms Model 2 for a few purposes. Alot of it is target shooting, because I like the versatility and ability to essentially fully customize the AR platform.

I'm also in the Military (Army Reserves). Being a reservist, at least with my current unit, means I get to shoot my M4 MAYBE twice a year. If i'm lucky. And even then, I put about 50 rounds downrange (Zero and Qualification) and I'm done.

The idea of deploying and relying on my 100 rounds a year training scares the HELL out of me. So I use my AR for practice in that regard. Practice zeroing, sight picture, malfunction drills, etc. As a result my qualification scores have increased noticeably since I bought it.

I'm also pursuing a career in law enforcement, and have taken several classes on "tactical" use of the rifle. My dream is to join the regional SWAT team in the future.


So for me, alot of my AR use can be viewed as professional, though I still enjoy just taking it to the range for some target shooting periodically.
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Old December 24, 2012, 10:41 AM   #8
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http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...=509683&page=8

See posts 193 and 194 for some links to good points by current and former police officers ... the people who would be most in favor if more gun control if they thought it might work. But they are also the people who best understand that "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away."
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Old December 24, 2012, 10:42 AM   #9
Hiker 1
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ligonierbill - it's the classic slippery slope argument. If ARs and the like are banned, what will be next when another massacre occurs?
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Old December 24, 2012, 01:54 PM   #10
hardworker
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I consider myself pro-gun. However, if AR's get banned I won't lose sleep because they aren't good for anything. There are better hunting rifles and better target rifles. They're made to kill people.

I do however realize that such a ban could be the beginning of a slippery slope which we will need to be on guard against.
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Old December 24, 2012, 01:59 PM   #11
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I could never understand why anyone would want one.....until I bought one. They are just plain fun guns to shoot, and the ammo (.223) is affordable compared to many other rifles. Antis cannot fathom a gun could be fun to shoot.
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Old December 24, 2012, 02:20 PM   #12
Apom
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To me an AR-15 is a hobby. Sure its fun to shoot..but building one with different parts and colors is the exciting part. Its like a work of art.

Seeing someone's assembled AR with the bells and whistles makes me feel inside the same way someone who goes into a art museum and stares at a canvas of paint.

With the AR being a hobby, sure I'll shoot it..but the joy of building one is my reasoning..I don't plan to use it to commit murder. The same way someone who restores a WW2 tank doesnt plan on blowing up a supermarket with it when he/she is finished with it.

Someone who believes my firearm is a weapon of mass destruction..is probably the same person texting while flying down the freeway at 70 miles an hour.
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Old December 24, 2012, 02:28 PM   #13
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i don't have to justify why i want to own, or why i do in fact own any firearm.

if you fall into the 'i want/need it for hunting/fishing/target shooting/home defense.....' trap, then you have just admitted that the govt can invent limits on what guns and what type of guns are 'socially acceptable'.

why i own and shoot guns is none of anyone's business.
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Old December 24, 2012, 02:39 PM   #14
12GaugeShuggoth
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Quote:
I consider myself pro-gun. However, if AR's get banned I won't lose sleep because they aren't good for anything. There are better hunting rifles and better target rifles. They're made to kill people.
And that's exactly the kind of illogical thinking that screws us all over. The "merit" or "worth" of an AR to you or me or the little old lady living down the street is irrelevant. Just because we may not want one doesn't mean that others should have to give up the opportunity to own one if they want.

And no they are not "made to kill people", any more so than a knife is made to stab people, or a hammer is made to whack someone over the head with. They can all do those things, but that is not what their express purpose is.....they are tools, they are given purpose by the hands that hold them.

Slippery slope is just that, and it's difficult to stop once you start to slide.
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Old December 24, 2012, 03:53 PM   #15
hardworker
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nd no they are not "made to kill people", any more so than a knife is made to stab people, or a hammer is made to whack someone over the head with. They can all do those things, but that is not what their express purpose is.....they are tools, they are given purpose by the hands that hold them.
Some knives are meant for stabbing. The man that designed ARs did so because he thought we needed a better combat rifle. I have no problem with people owning them, but to pretend they're anything other than combat rifles is to stick our heads in the sand.

To argue otherwise is a semantic argument and is why people think we're all nutjobs.

Some people in the gun community are so afraid to admit that some guns are designed specifically to kill people that we're losing legitimacy as a group. It's like saying "books aren't meant for reading", we deny deny deny until we look like idiots.
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Old December 24, 2012, 04:05 PM   #16
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I consider myself pro-gun. However, if AR's get banned I won't lose sleep because they aren't good for anything. There are better hunting rifles and better target rifles. They're made to kill people.


I find every part of your post baffling. Millions of ARs are used every year for hunting and target shooting. Nearly every top target shooter that uses a CFR round uses one. They come in nearly every loading that you would want for hunting with a lighter weight and are light recoiling.

I believe you may have staked a position from an uninformed vantage point. How many AR's have you owned?
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Old December 24, 2012, 04:14 PM   #17
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We are giving to much control to the government. That's all they care about. And you know who else wants more gun control in America.. China, if that doesn't raise any red flags I don't know what will.
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Old December 24, 2012, 04:24 PM   #18
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no they are not "made to kill people", any more so than a knife is made to stab people, or a hammer is made to whack someone over the head with. They can all do those things, but that is not what their express purpose is.....they are tools, they are given purpose by the hands that hold them.
People knew that a generation ago ..... for all the money we have spent on education, I think we have failed at spending it wisely .....

There was a line in the movie "Shane" I am trying to remember .... went something like, "A gun is a tool, Marian, like an axe, or a shovel or anything, and is no better or worse than the man holding it. Remember that."

Two points:

1: Seriously: How is limiting everybody's ability to get this gun or that gun going to do any good at all for the problem at hand, when a nutter shows up with any weapon at all, even a hatchet or a baseball bat, in a kindergarten class room? He'll kill until he gets tired of killing, or someone shows up with greater force than he has, whichever comes first. The only real answer is to arm the people that are there.....

2:Which brings me to my second point, which is: Those behind the drive to ban guns don't care about protecting kindergarteners, or anybody else (except themselves -THEY have armed guards). They want guns banned. ALL of them, except those they have control over. Gun Control always been about CONTROL, not guns. You can not control a free man if he is armed. To do this, they'll use whatever crisis comes up: this nutter used an AR, so they ban Semi-Autos..... the next one used a deer rifle, so then they ban "Sniper Rifles" ..... then handguns..... the Euros are down to registering kitchen knives ...... yet their murder and assault rates are higher than ours ..... and those seeking control will ALWAYS have another fix for every problem that pops up ...... it will just involve you surrendering just a little bit more of your cash/time/liberty .....


Quote:
Looking at target shooting only, no zombie crap, or the need to defend my country against foreign invaders.

It's not the foreign invaders/enemies that most worry me......
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Old December 24, 2012, 04:32 PM   #19
Kevin Rohrer
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However, if AR's get banned I won't lose sleep because they aren't good for anything.
What a ridiculous, close-minded statement. They are as "good" for lots of things as any other type of firearm:

*Defense
*Hunting
*Competition of several different types
*Recreation
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Old December 24, 2012, 06:00 PM   #20
hardworker
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What a ridiculous, close-minded statement. They are as "good" for lots of things as any other type of firearm:

*Defense
*Hunting
*Competition of several different types
*Recreation
Defense, yes they could be used for. I'm not debating that. That's exactly what they were made for. Killing people.

Hunting, sure they can be used for hunting in the sense that they fire bullets and are capable of killing. But there are better guns for that. And 30 round mags just get in the way when accuracy is important. And I've never needed a semi-auto rifle to hunt with. And I don't know many that have.

Competition, sure I suppose they could be used for that, but competition is not a practical matter either.

Recreation, same as competition



I'm not against people owning them, I've said so plenty. I've shot them and thought it was cool, but I stand by my statement that the only thing they are really useful for killing people.
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Old December 24, 2012, 06:09 PM   #21
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I'm not against people owning them, I've said so plenty. I've shot them and thought it was cool, but I stand by my statement that the only thing they are really useful for killing people.
Does the same apply to a mini 14?Or a pistol caliber carbine an so on and so on?.......I can do most everything I want a gun to do with a AR.I can hunt various game everything from ground hog,up to large game(caliber depending)..I can shoot paper or steel FOR GUN,I can defend my life or my familys life an property if it was needed....

.I shoot vertical bows as well...Another weapon of war from the past used for killing people correct? The crossbow was DESIGNED for killing people for that matter..Does your argument apply to anything that was originally designed for a military?
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Old December 24, 2012, 08:10 PM   #22
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I'd say these rifles are most useful for defense of large expanses of property and in the case of the break down of law and order, like the aftermath of a natural disaster or during a riot. I've watched a party spill into a street and turn into a destructive mob before...no fun!

Well, what good does any repeater serve? Heck, why do you even need metallic cartridges? Couldn't you successfully hunt with an in-line muzzleloader and defend your property with 1860 Colt Army? Can't some form of self defense be achieved with a stun gun, pepper spray sword, club, axe or bare hands?

Better yet, why couldn't you just own ONE gun? Isn't that all you need?

They seem like silly questions, but it's definitely the kind of arguments anti-gunners use. The real answer is, good people have the right to self defense and should be allowed weapons that are common for that purpose.

The best analog, to guns, I find, is alcohol. What purpose does alcohol serve in our society? It causes more deaths than firearms, is dangerous to the user and those surrounding him, serves no practical purpose. (Alcohol was also unsuccessfully banned at one point.) Perhaps beer should be legal and whiskey banned, since it has a higher alcohol content?

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Old December 24, 2012, 08:20 PM   #23
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[QUOTE]Well, what good does any repeater serve? Heck, why do you even need metallic cartridges? Couldn't you successfully hunt with an in-line muzzleloader and defend your property with 1860 Colt Army? Can't some form of self defense be achieved with a stun gun, pepper spray sword, club, axe or bare hands? /QUOTE]

The Second Amendment was not written to defend your property against burglars, either. It was to be proof against a tyrannical government.

Those that would rule over us would be positively DEE-LIGHTED to see us limited to inline MLs and C&B revolvers .....

I'll keep the AR, just to make Sarah Brady cry and keep Chuck Schumer nervous, thankee.
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Old December 24, 2012, 08:39 PM   #24
Sport45
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Originally Posted by hardworker
I consider myself pro-gun. However, if AR's get banned I won't lose sleep because they aren't good for anything. There are better hunting rifles and better target rifles. They're made to kill people.
So, hardworker, where should they start? Are you okay with them banning 1911's, M1 carbines, M1 Garands, M9 Pistols? How about 6-shot revolvers, bolt action rifles, and pump shotguns? All were designed for or have seen much use in war for the act of killing people.

By that standard, we'd have to give up the muzzle loaders too.

What would you be thinking if your favorite firearm type was on the chopping block and everyone around was saying "no big deal" I don't have much use for those anyway.

You don't sound "pro gun" at all to me.
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Old December 24, 2012, 08:40 PM   #25
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OK, if you really want to explain the utility of an AR-15 or similar firearm to a non-gun person, how about this:

Semi-automatic weapons are preferable for use in self-defense because they negate the need to perform multiple operations when under stress. While manually working a pump, lever, or bolt may seem easy enough when one is at the range and not under duress, doing so under the pressure of someone trying to kill you or your loved ones is another matter entirely. The fact that a semi-automatic weapon requires the user to perform only one operation, pulling the trigger, makes it less prone to user induced malfunction at a critical time. Also, the manner in which a semi-automatic firearm works also absorbs some of the recoil of the cartridge thus making it easier to shoot accurately.

As far as high-capacity magazines are concerned, they are preferable because an extremely determined individual or one under the influence of mind-altering chemicals can be shot a surprisingly high number of times before being stopped. For example, Michael Lee Platt had to be shot 12 times before he was stopped during the infamous 1986 Miami Dade Shootout. This compounded with the fact that violent criminals often work in groups of two or more means that there is no guarantee that 10 rounds or less will be sufficient to stop a threat.

Finally, the AR-15 in particular has several features that make it a wise choice for a home-defense firearm. The lightweight, high velocity bullet of the the .223 Remington cartridge which most AR-15's are chambered for often destabilizes and/or breaks apart upon impact with interior walls. This means that the .223 Remington actually penetrates less, and thus poses a lower risk to bystanders, than most common handgun and shotgun cartridges. Likewise, the .223 Remington cartridge is not particularly powerful when compared to rifle cartridges commonly used for hunting such as .308 Winchester or 30-06 Springfield instead being roughly equivalent in energy to some of the more powerful handgun cartridges like .454 Casull and .475 Linebaugh. The AR-15 is also light in weight, particularly mild recoiling, and many models have stocks which can be lengthened or shortened thus making it suitable for use by people of varying statures and levels of strength. Finally, the longer barrel and better sights of an AR-15 make it much easier to shoot accurately than a handgun and the fact that it fires a single projectile rather than several pellets as a shotgun does combine to ensure that, if used properly, it is one of the firearms least likely to be used to unintentionally shoot an innocent bystander.
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