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Old January 4, 2013, 05:15 PM   #51
boattale
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The shotgun thats in the corner is loaded with three 9 pellet 00 buck and one slug. I believe what Mr. McCracken had to say about the matter.
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Old January 5, 2013, 02:21 AM   #52
Lee Lapin
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There are any number of factors influencing buckshot performance, but here are a few that seem to be more important-

1) Hard lead alloy and/or plated buckshot pellets. They tend to deform less on firing and being forced down the bore, and rounder pellets tend to fly straighter and thus tend to pattern better.

2) Grex (granulated plastic filler) or some other protection between the individual pellets inside the shotgun shell. Again, this helps deliver rounder, less deformed pellets out of the muzzle.

3) A shot cup or similar layer between the pellets and the inside of the barrel. As mentioned, this offers another layer of protection to the pellets.

I've found that in general, less expensive brands of buckshot (S&B, RIO etc) tend to be loaded with soft lead, unprotected pellets - and this produce the widest patterns.

The 'standard' loads from major manufacturers tend to offer grex filling inside a plastic shot cup, collar or one piece wad, and sometimes harder alloy or plated pellets (like Fiocchi), and tend to deliver medium size patterns.

The 'premium' loads (Federal, Hornady, Speer) offer hard lead plated pellets, generous amounts of grex, and a thick-walled shot cup with a good bit of room inside. This shot cup, known as a FliteControl wad, tends to hold pellets together until the whole cup exits from the muzzle, at which time the wad is retarded and the pattern continues downrange with pellets in close proximity. These loads tend to produce the tightest possible patterns from open choked shotguns.

I'm fine with 2 3/4" full velocity 9 pellet 00 buck, right now I'm using Federal LE-127 00. It has the FliteControl wad, and out of my favorite 18" CYL bore 870 it will print 4" patterns at 25 yards. I like tight patterns...

The sidesaddle is loaded with Brenneke KO slugs, in case I need more penetration than buckshot can deliver.

hth!
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Old March 1, 2013, 10:36 AM   #53
RMcL
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"The 'premium' loads (Federal, Hornady, Speer) offer hard lead plated pellets, generous amounts of grex, and a thick-walled shot cup with a good bit of room inside. This shot cup, known as a FliteControl wad, tends to hold pellets together until the whole cup exits from the muzzle, at which time the wad is retarded and the pattern continues downrange with pellets in close proximity. These loads tend to produce the tightest possible patterns from open choked shotguns." Lee Lapin


Lee,

Hornady does not use any buffer, aka Grex, in its line of Buckshot, Varmit or Turkey shotshells.
-----------------------------------------------------------
From: Hornady Manufacturing, Inc
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 8:39 PM
To: tech
Subject: "Technical Inquiries"

Ralph,
We make no reference to the buffering because we do not use any in our factory turkey, buck, and coyote loads. We appreciate your inquiry and your business.
Thank you

-----------------------------------------------------------

Hornady then, depends entirely on the VersaTite (same as Flite-Control) wad, hard - high antimony content pellets and in their Heavy Magnum Coyote and Turkey series, the addition of nickle plated pellets to deliver tight patterns.

RMcL

Last edited by RMcL; March 1, 2013 at 10:42 AM.
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Old March 1, 2013, 08:50 PM   #54
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Here's a test of the Hornady TAP 00 with the VersaTite I did a few weeks ago if you want to see how it does on some ballistics gel from 15m away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woQyTKoD0Rk
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Old March 3, 2013, 12:57 PM   #55
RMcL
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That is very severe pellet deformation. Have you noted that level of pellet deformation with any other buckshot rounds in gelatin tests?
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Old March 4, 2013, 11:37 AM   #56
Pyzon
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T'm wondering if pellet deformation is that big of a problem if they still penetrate the way these did.....In fact some of them are likely to be on the ground somewhere behind the victim !
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Old March 10, 2013, 10:44 PM   #57
111t
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I recently watched a video about a young man that found himself on the wrong end of a gang initiation. The perp, a fellow classmate, asked for a ride and then had the victim drive him to an abandoned lot. When they got out of the car the perp retrieved a hidden shotgun and began shooting the victim from a range of 10 feet or less. The perp fired three times hitting the victim once in the arm, once in the chest, and a grazing shot to the head. Then the perp hopped in the victims car and took off. The victim stood up, and walked to the nearest intersection where a police officer found him and got him first aid and an ambulance. The victim lived and fully recovered thank God. He was unconscious for several days. The point of all this is that birdshot is bad news as a defensive load. If the the tables were turned and I was up against a determined aggressor, possibly hopped up on something, I would want a load that would stop the incident immediately by interfering with the basic mechanics of the aggressors body as opposed to a low penetrating load that would leave his lungs and heart still more or less operational. It seems a grim way of looking at it, but that my logic. I hope to never put it to the test.

So in my Hd shotgun I tested three options. Basic 2 3/4" federal classic 00 & 000, as well as Remington 3" 00. Basic, cheap enough to train with, hunting grade buckshot. No versatightcontrol anything. All three have grex.

What I found was that the federal 00 was a very tight pattern at 20'. About 3". The federal 000 was a bit bigger, about 5". The Remington had the 'worst' pattern at around 8-10". This dovetails nicely with a rule of thumb i've read online that 3" magnums tend to pattern wider than standard loads. The reason I put the quotes around 'worst' is that I'm not sure what the objective is here. To my logic, the 10" pattern gives me more margin of error against a moving target. That's the whole point of a shotgun isn't it? It seems to me that the flite control systems are better applied to turkey and coyote loads and possibly to LE loads where more range may be necessary.
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Old March 10, 2013, 11:02 PM   #58
RMcL
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"Here's a test of the Hornady TAP 00 with the VersaTite I did a few weeks ago if you want to see how it does on some ballistics gel from 15m away."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woQyTKoD0Rk

plouffedaddy

------------------------------------------------------

Hornady responded to my recent query confirming the 12 ga. TAP FPD (For Personal Defense?) round is indeed loaded with low antimony/soft lead pellets - compared to other buckshot rounds in the Hornady line.
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Old March 11, 2013, 12:37 AM   #59
sunaj
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My research compells me to use 12 ga. #4 buck for tactical encounters, best combo of pellet size vs distribution for 2 legged criterz,
unless the situation calls for penetrating barriers (then 0-000 buck),
on the subject of gauge 12 or better for tactical;
on birdshot-not an effective load for self-defense, but besides hunting) it is an appropriate rd when your intention may be to harrass, fend off (without killing), slow down, or otherwise impede an opponent

sunaj

Last edited by sunaj; March 11, 2013 at 12:42 AM.
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Old March 26, 2013, 03:54 PM   #60
Lee Lapin
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I see I am guilty of overgeneralization ... didn't mean to imply that every manufacturer used every one of the features I listed.

After seeing the pellet deformation in the Hornady test video, it's apparent those pellets are not hardened, plated or protected by buffering. I can't see any way Hornady wouldn't benefit from things that help their shotshells deliver rounder pellets on target, but...

I stopped using Hornady TAP FPD buckshot several years ago, because their crimps were so sloppy it was disturbing. I haven't bought any since, and AFAIK don't have any left. I still prefer Federal LE127-00 with FliteControl, till something better comes along.
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Old March 26, 2013, 06:48 PM   #61
amd6547
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What is the difference between the Hornady TAP FPD load, and the Critical Defense 00 buck?
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Old March 26, 2013, 07:53 PM   #62
lefteye
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sunag:
Quote:
My research compells me to use 12 ga. #4 buck for tactical encounters, best combo of pellet size vs distribution for 2 legged criterz
Please tell us about your research.
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Old March 27, 2013, 04:36 PM   #63
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I've killed a pretty fair number of Virginia whitetails, all with buckshot. The first one, when I was young, I shot seven times with 3" magnum loads of number 1 buck. I later learned that the range was about 50 yards. Much too far, even though she went down every time I shot.

After that, after learning to judge range better, I never used more than two shots of the same 3" loads of Remington No 1 buck. The first shot put the animal on the ground. The next one insured they were never going to get up again (a couple I finished off with birdshot to end the suffering). Longest range, excepting that first one, was about thirty-five yards. The closest was about ten yards.

I also participated in skinning and gutting a bunch more buckshot killed deer. 000 buck breaks bones like matchsticks. I never used it much because my gun shot No 1 better, but the fellows in my club who used 000 swore by it. Their results seemed to back up their claims. The only time I ever shot at a deer using 000 I missed at ten yards when a tree jumped between the deer and me. You could have covered that pattern with a coffee cup.

I never saw a deer killed with either 00 or No 4 that I know of. As far as I know, everyone in my club used either No 1, or 000, so I have no opinion about them.

I saw one deer killed with a slug (against the rules at our club). That shot was right through the heart, and the blood trail looked like it had been poured out of a bucket. That animal didn't go twenty yards.
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Old April 3, 2013, 01:51 AM   #64
RMcL
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Hornady responded to my recent query confirming the 12 ga. TAP FPD (For Personal Defense?) round is indeed loaded with low antimony/soft lead pellets - compared to other buckshot rounds in the Hornady line.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Lee

The answer I received from Hornady indicated the FPD round was loaded with soft lead shot to limit penetration. It is my understanding other rounds in their buckshot line contained high antimony pellets.
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