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Old December 29, 2012, 12:12 AM   #1
gasmandave
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Odd ball Enfield

I just bought this odd ball Lee Enfield No4 Mk1 ROF(F) 17.25" barrel.
Anyone have any ideas about it.

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Old December 29, 2012, 06:24 AM   #2
bacardisteve
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Cant really tell but could this have been a jungle carbine at one point? Someone may have cut it down at one point also.
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Old December 29, 2012, 06:43 AM   #3
Rainbow Demon
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While this is almost certainly a homemade "Bulldog" type cut down no.4, I have seen images of a relic No.4 barreled action dug up on a WW2 European battle field that had been shortened in the same manner and a Grenade launching tube afixed to the muzzle.
Speculation at the time was that rifle had been a one off modification for a special purpose, perhaps as a compact anti-tank grenade launcher, or for use in launching heavy smoke grenades to mark a LZ.
British Paratroopers had been engaged in battle on that spot, but little other information was available.

If the cut end of the fore end and handguard show raw wood its most likely a very recent modification. If the cut ends show significant aging then theres a slim possibility that the alteration may have been done while the rifle was in service.

Cutdown rifles are a fairly common concealable self defense weapon in a number of third world countries. Among confiscated weapons in Pakistan and Afghanistan were many cut down 11mm Mausers and other shortened rifles.

I've seen images of many home Bubba'ed cutdown No.4 rifles over the years, and at one time a similar but longer barreled "Bulldog" was offered for sale by importers.
There had been several types of prototype Bulldog conversions of the No.4 while the No.5 carbine was in development stages, but so far as I can tell these are all in museum collections.
Similar very short Bulldog conversions of the M1917 rifle are among the more oddball exhibits at the Springfield Armory museum. There used to be a photo collection of these exhibits online, but that site went down many moons ago.
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Old December 29, 2012, 01:00 PM   #4
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Thanks for sharing, cool gun regardless of its pedigree and or authenticy.
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Old December 29, 2012, 05:24 PM   #5
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I know little about enfields and I could be completely wrong here but with the solid bolt handle(knobs not hollowed out) the bolt is from a number 4 rather than number 5 jungle carbine. also, the number 5's handguards were not long enough for that one to belong so it is also more than likely from an number 4. add to that the front stock band and front sights are from the number 4 and it has L style rear sights(american made MK1*), this is definitely not a number 5, unless someone took a great deal of time to strip a number 5 receiver and replace all the parts with various number 4s which would be a huge hassle with almost nothing to gain.

however the brass ring on the stock is something that I've only seen on older designs like the RIC carbines and and number 1 rifles. I would wager that this is just a parts rifle, assembled from a huge stack of parts and cut down since there is little collectors value in it. I however love my enfield and would love to build myself a great little brush gun like this one. it probably kicks like a freaking mule but I bet it sure is fun.

be sure to post a range review on this little bad boy.
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Old December 29, 2012, 05:47 PM   #6
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Tahuna nailed it. It is definitely a number 4, or at least it is now. Should be interesting to shoot...
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Old December 29, 2012, 06:35 PM   #7
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Odd ball

Haven't shot this one yet, I think it will be loud and with a pretty good fireball. I like it Kind of a "(British)Bulldog". The receiver is marked No4 Mk1 ROF(F) which I think means it was made in Liverpool at Royal Ordnance Factory (Fazakerley).

Not a Jungle Carbine, some one said it may have been modded by "Century Arms".
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Old December 29, 2012, 06:45 PM   #8
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Gasmandave - you are correct mate, ROF (F) indicates made at ROF Fazakerley. National munitions plant, north end of my home town, Liverpool.

To pronounce like a native, keep emphasis even and hack the 'k' like a Dutchman choking on a 'g', or Daffy Duck being throttled.

Cracking, interesting little rifle you have.
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Old December 29, 2012, 07:07 PM   #9
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Been debating putting a scope on it...my eyes are not what they used to be
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Old December 29, 2012, 07:17 PM   #10
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Quote:
however the brass ring on the stock is something that I've only seen on older designs like the RIC carbines and and number 1 rifles. I would wager that this is just a parts rifle, assembled from a huge stack of parts and cut down since there is little collectors value in it.
I did not notice the regimental disc. You are correct that this disc was not a feature of the No.4 rifle, or later production No.1 SMLE rifles. The disc was discontinued when it was found that German military intelligence was using the discs from captured rifles to keep track of which British regiments were on which section of the front at anyone time.

I have seen a SMLE MkI buttstock (the early type of English Walnut with extra lightening tunnels drilled under the butt plate) fitted to a no.4, how it got there is unknown. The butts aren't entirely interchangable, but are easily fitted to the other type action bodies. Some butts made specifically to be used with either type rifle without alteration were manufactured during WW2.

While throat erosion is the most common damage to Enfield bores due to hard use, damage to the crown and rifling within several inches of the muzzle is nearly as common, and due entirely to improper cleaning practices.
It was said that a recruit who did not know how to handle the pull through could do more damage to the bore in five minutes than decades of service with tens of thousands of rounds fired.

I've run across more than a few otherwise very nice bores with the crown worn into a lop sided oval and little or no rifling for the last six inches. This comes from dragging a grit laden pull through out the muzzle without making sure to pull the cord straight out. The occasional use of jointed steel cleaning rods by third world users does even more damage.

Then only a inch or so of the rifling at the muzzle is damaged counter boring can save the barrel, if damage extends further back cutting the barrel back is often the only way to obtain useful accuracy.

Fore ends damaged in bayonet practice are fairly common, and one may find one dirt cheap in a smith's parts bin.

If one wishes to build a snub nosed Tanker or Bulldog as a knockaround beater they should start with a pre-disastered barrel and a fore end thats ready for the scrap pile.

If one wishes to build a shorty with bayonet lugs and sight locator lugs intact, you can turn down the cut down barrel's muzzle then bore out the chopped off muzzle section to a slip fit and silver solder in place.
This can also be done if fitting a custom tightbore barrel, to preserve the original configuration.
High Force 44 is the best silver solder for this sort of work.
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Old December 29, 2012, 08:13 PM   #11
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Within the last 10 years or so, a number of companies have been offering "Tanker" versions of surplus bolt action rifles as a means of offering something new to the gun buyer.

I've seen these #4 and even #3 Lee Enfield's shortened to "Tanker" carbines as well as US Model 1917's and various 98 Mauser's.
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Old December 30, 2012, 12:33 AM   #12
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I suggest PMing Tikirocker about your rifle. He is a veritable encyclopedia on all things enfield, but I have not seen him around lately.
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Old December 30, 2012, 09:58 AM   #13
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PM received, reply sent ... Happy New Year all!

Tiki.
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Old January 1, 2013, 11:58 AM   #14
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So, we've seen the range report, but what was the history on it?
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Old January 1, 2013, 01:08 PM   #15
E Rob
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I had one of these back about 5 years ago, nice con no disk, all matching, crowned, no cut marks, nice shooter for 100.00
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Old January 1, 2013, 02:51 PM   #16
4V50 Gary
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Check out Ian Skennerton's The Lee Enfield Story, page 434. There is an "Experimental No. 1 Shortened & Lightened Rifle." Except for the disk, it looks just like the one in the image.

Markings are:

MA
Lithgow
SMLE
III*
1944

A few were made in England but a batch of 100 were made in Australia for army trials in 1944. Serial numbers are preceded by "XP" and were numbered from 1 to 100.
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Old January 1, 2013, 03:07 PM   #17
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4v50 Gary,
if I recall correctly the number 1 enfield's bolt face is larger than the number 4's which mimics the same contours as the bolt body. also the decockers are rounded on number 1s. unless they also tried updating the sights on the experimental number 1s they would have barrel mounted rear sights instead of reciever mounted like the one in the picture. the magazine is also consistent with a number 4 rather than number 1. the front sight post, forward stock band... all are parts consistent with a cut down number 4, I could see little use in the australian military experimenting with converting a number 1 to a number 4 when the time and money needed could have just been better spent adopting a modified number 4 instead.
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Old January 1, 2013, 03:17 PM   #18
4V50 Gary
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The "No. 1" should not be mistaken for an earlier No. 1 rifle that was modified but rather as meaning experiment No. 1.

The bolt knob in the image is round (but I can't tell if its hollowed out). The decocker is like that found on the later MK IV and the Australian Jungle Carbine. Ditto with the front sight band. The magazines are the same too.

Suggest you get the book via interlibrary loan.
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Old January 4, 2013, 02:53 PM   #19
jackbiggz14
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scope

I am also looking to put a replica scope mount on my enfield #4 mk1, but the bad part is i am looking to spend about 100 (college budget). any ideas where to look.
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Old January 4, 2013, 05:26 PM   #20
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A replica isn't going to happen on a $100. budget. You might get a no drill no tap add on though.

There are several under $100, but none replicate the original in look or function. They do let you add a scope but in ways different from the screw in pads of the original system.
B-Square makes one for about $50 (although I don't care for it's quality). There are a couple of others that use the rear sight axis pin & charger bridge that work fairly wel, Do a quick google & you'll find them easily.
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Old January 4, 2013, 06:01 PM   #21
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I bet that thing puts out a huge fireball.
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Old January 4, 2013, 11:37 PM   #22
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Bama Shooter, I thought it would kick like a mule, be loud, and emit a large fireball but I got none of that when I fired it. Although I shot it around 2pm in the afternoon on a sunny day. I've seen pictures of Mosins and they have a pretty good fireball but this one didn't. I was shooting MilSurp ammo (1964) so who knows.
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Old January 5, 2013, 08:29 AM   #23
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You're killing me! What did you learn from Tikirocker WRT the pedigree of your unusual rifle?
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Old January 5, 2013, 08:51 AM   #24
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I dont know anything about it. But, I have the same rifle. Only diference is that mine has had the wood removed from the top of the barrel and stained to a redish hue.
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Old January 6, 2013, 01:39 AM   #25
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globemaster3, Tikirocker just said that it was a "Mutt" and to re-barrel it and put on new furniture and then it might be worth something. Here's his qoute "The rifle is not original or a legit Lee Enfield item, rather these rifles were cut down post war and sold by certain companies in the U.S and retailed as novelties with names like "Tankers" and "Tanker Cabines" etc. These never existed, were never issued by any Commonwealth nation who used the No4 and are a complete fiction.

If you ever get a hankering to restore it, replace the shortened barrel and fit a replacement fore-end and hand guards - I wager you'd add more value to it than what it is worth in its current form."

Cheers, Tiki.


\I guess he didn't like it. I think it has a bit of "cool" Factor and I'm leaving it like it is.

By the way, the brass disc has nothing on it.
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