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Old December 28, 2012, 11:37 AM   #1
dahermit
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Purpose of holster tilt?

Having perused books on fast draw, I have not seen anything other than comfort when seated for having a forward tilt (as in "FBI cant") in a strong-side holster rather than vertical. Is there supposedly some drawing or other advantage for the tilt, other than comfort while seated? Civilian only, not concerned about police specific issues.
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Old December 28, 2012, 12:03 PM   #2
PawPaw
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Quote:
Civilian only, not concerned about police specific issues.
Police are civilians, but I get your point.

I find a forward tilt comfortable when I'm carrying, especially as I like to carry at the 3:30 or 4:00 position, just barely behind what most folks call a 3:00 strong-side carry. Thankfully, most good OWB holsters allow for the user to adjust the tilt to accommodate their desires. Everyone's body type is just a little bit different and being able to adjust your holster to your body is a big plus.
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Old December 28, 2012, 01:16 PM   #3
ClydeFrog
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FBI cant/straight up/cross draw.....

Some armed professionals & concealed license holders like the comfort or smooth draw with a FBI/canted holster. Newer polymer & Kydex holsters like the Blackhawk SERPA & Blade-tech line allow minor changes to the same holster for drawing or comfort.
I used the FBI cant with my M&P full size 9x19mm in a SERPA and honestly didn't like it as much as the standard or vertical carry. I have large hips & the M&P pistol looked a bit like John Wayne in some of his later westerns, .
It may work better for concealed holsters or when worn; behind the hip.
I sometimes wear cross-draw style rigs and they work well with angled draws.
I wouldn't suggest that method for regular duty or open-carry positions.

Clyde
PS: If you ever see the old crime drama; Sharkey's Machine(1981) with Burt Reynolds, he wears a wierd leather FBI cant holster but in a crossdraw for his full size 1911a1 model .45acp. In real life, it'd be a awkward draw to use for a large pistol.
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Old December 28, 2012, 01:36 PM   #4
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I've found that (for me) the FBI cant has a much smoother draw. I can more or less just sweep my hand forward into a good firing position, and "grab the gun on the way", rather than pull it up and then forward...if that makes sense.

Obviously YMMV, but those are my findings.

I've also found that when wearing my Glock 21 IWB the cant makes it easier to conceal (the grip doesn't stick out when I bend over, since it's more vertical with my torso, so it eliminates that boat-sail look)
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Old December 28, 2012, 01:49 PM   #5
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Combat Shooting

Quote:
Is there supposedly some drawing or other advantage for the tilt, other than comfort while seated? Civilian only, not concerned about police specific issues.
There is an advantage and even though not "police specific" certainly combat shooting, which is what hopefully you won't have to encounter. The cant is of little use in Bullseye shooting but is, for normal CCW use. ..

If you have had any training, what did the instructor teach?

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Old December 28, 2012, 02:04 PM   #6
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I find the forward cant conceals larger guns more efficiently, and also makes it easier to draw when seated - for instance, when driving.
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Old December 28, 2012, 04:07 PM   #7
dahermit
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Quote:
I've found that (for me) the FBI cant has a much smoother draw. I can more or less just sweep my hand forward into a good firing position, and "grab the gun on the way", rather than pull it up and then forward...if that makes sense.
You do not have to break your wrist down to match the angle of the hand gun's grip?
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Old December 28, 2012, 04:12 PM   #8
dahermit
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Quote:
If you have had any training, what did the instructor teach?
Read Bill Jordan, Cuningham, Ed McGivern. Jordan stated that it was necessary for riding in a car and that the forward tilt did not slow down a fast draw. That is why I am asking, "...Is there supposedly some drawing or other advantage for the tilt, other than comfort while seated?..."
So far from the posts, it would seem that if a person's body had a slight inward curve above the hip, the canted gun would fit into it better for both comfort and concealment.
Anything else?
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Old December 28, 2012, 07:08 PM   #9
Bob Wright
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At my age, a draw of straight-up cramps my arm whereas the forward cant makes a more smooth "sweep" when drawing. But then, maybe that's from years of practice.

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Old December 28, 2012, 07:44 PM   #10
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Police are civilians, but I get your point.
Thank you. That's a pet peeve of mine....

Anyway, the cant allows you to draw and present in one fluid motion. At least that is my experience.
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Old December 28, 2012, 08:29 PM   #11
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One major reason for the classic FBI tilt was that the FBI taught using the crouch stance in which the shooter goes into a crouch position.
With the body in a crouch, the holster is well positioned for a better draw.

I once watched as a local FBI agent taught some deputies back in the 1960's.
He demonstrated lifting the left leg, moving it a couple of feet to the left, then just squatting.
This tilted his upper body forward, which put the FBI tilt holster in a perfect position for the draw.

The FBI tilt also works well when sitting in a car and conceals better then an upright holster.
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Old December 28, 2012, 08:35 PM   #12
dahermit
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After reading Paw Paw's post, it occurred to me that I did not take into account my frame of reference. For my purposes (my frame of reference), I was thinking in terms of my preferred position for fast draw, 3:00 or slightly forward. In that position a forward cant requires me to "break" my wrist, so I prefer a vertical orientation. But, for concealment purposes, people may position their holsters to the rear of the 3:00 position, and doing so, I can see where having a forward cant (instead of my preferred vertical), would be a more natural position.

It would seem that there are physical factors that dictate where a person would want to hang their holstered guns. When I was young, I liked the "Mexican carry", of sticking a 1911 between the butt and the hip bone with a slight forward cant...especically answering the door at night. However, with arthritis locking my shoulder joints, reaching back that far is only done with some difficulty. It is a shame...that carry with a 1911 seemed to be made for one another (in some circumstances).
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Old December 28, 2012, 08:43 PM   #13
dahermit
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Quote:
One major reason for the classic FBI tilt was that the FBI taught using the crouch stance in which the shooter goes into a crouch position.
That was covered by Cuningham in his book. He stated that everyone goes into a crouch when startled and it is as you said, tilt is better than strait when crouched. However, in some scenarios, I know that I would not crouch. If someone shot at me, I would most certainly crouch instinctively as he asserted. However, if I was in a parking lot at night and someone came close with a knife, club, etc. and demanded my money, I do not think I would be in a crouch. Again, there is the difference between his and my frame of reference.
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Old December 28, 2012, 08:48 PM   #14
dahermit
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Police are civilians, but I get your point.
I only referred to them that way because over the years the police shows on TV will frequently refer to non-police as "civilians". Whether or not real police do that, I do not know, its been years since I have talked to the police officers I knew.
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Old December 28, 2012, 10:27 PM   #15
PawPaw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dahermit
Whether or not real police do that, I do not know,
Some do, some don't. I don't differentiate, except between sworn and non-sworn, and I do that even within my agency. It's one of my pet peeves and I do that purely to let my sworn brethren know that we're not any better, different, or worse than the people we serve.

All police, except military police, are civilians, that is, we're subject to civil law. Military police are, of course, subject to the UCMJ.

That goes back to Robert Peel's principals of police work, which says, in part:
Quote:
Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent upon every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.
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Old December 29, 2012, 01:59 PM   #16
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off topic; sworn vs non-sworn....

Sworn LE officers are NOT private citizens IMO. They meet the same legal requirements as other citizens in the general public but they also took a sworn oath to uphold the law, enforce the law(s) and to make arrests when they are required to do so.
Cops are required to make arrests & to enforce the law, private citizens are not. Citizens can not witness a crime & chase someone down, then make an arrest. That is why LE jobs are called public trust positions. They have shown the ability to have morals & ethics.
Any cop who sees a crime & says; "so what" or "I'm off duty." shouldn't be a sworn LE officer, IMO.
All sworn LE officers should wear a badge & a sidearm too, IMO.
A few years ago, I saw a small group of homicide detectives from a county sheriffs office at a crime scene. None of the plainclothes detectives had badges or weapons. That wouldn't happen if I were sheriff, .

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Old December 30, 2012, 06:52 AM   #17
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Quote:
They have shown the ability to have morals & ethics
I'm sure that's the plan. But the "ability to have ..." should include everyone?

****************

BTW, what happened to the topic, Purpose of holster tilt?

('Looks like I allowed myself to get sucked in the off topic discussion too.)

Let's go to Handguns: General ... and maybe get back on topic, or start your own.

Moving.
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Old December 30, 2012, 08:34 AM   #18
lockedcj7
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I have long legs, long arms and a short torso. I also wear my belt on my waist where it belongs.

If I wear a straight drop holster, I have to bend my elbow unnaturally to get the muzzle to clear the holster. A forward cant allows me to bend my elbow less and make a more natural draw.
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Old December 30, 2012, 09:42 AM   #19
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I've looked into this topic before also and I haven't found any real clear answers on this, as it relates to speed of draw. I've read Jordan and John Bianchi's book on gunleather. The topic is discussed slightly but I found no real answers.

I think that if you carry a pistol behind the hip, there is no doubt that the cant forward makes it easier to aquire the grip. Additionally, if you have a longer barrel and ride in a car all day, I think the cant forward is advantageous for both draw and comfort.

One other point is that if you carry a longer barreled firearm, like a 5" revolver, I think that not only is the pistol more concealable since the hoslter doesn't hang as low when canted, (plus butt is less likely to protrude back), but I think that you can clear the barrel quicker from the front of the holster, since when canted, the front opening is lower. I don't think you have to pull the pistol as high up to clear leather.
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Old December 30, 2012, 10:01 AM   #20
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For me, when carrying an auto (especially a full sized one) behind the hip....a forward canted holster is the only way to go. I lugged a Gov. size 1911 in a Desantis speed scabbard for years. Very comfortable, completely concealed under a regular T shirt and a smooth, quick draw. Perfect for carry in formal attire also
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Old December 30, 2012, 10:02 AM   #21
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I prefer a forward cant in my strong side carry. Horizontal chest rig is best for combat imo. I don't care for cross draw at all. I think its purely for show and has limited functionality. I prefer a lumbar or weak side forward cant for a back up.

The forward cant allows the barrel to clear the holster with less vertical lift making presentation quicker. Puts the grip at a more natural angle to grasp when carrying behind the right hip. 4 o clock aprox. That's why its my preference.
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Old December 30, 2012, 12:28 PM   #22
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Quote:
After reading Paw Paw's post, it occurred to me that I did not take into account my frame of reference. For my purposes (my frame of reference), I was thinking in terms of my preferred position for fast draw, 3:00 or slightly forward. In that position a forward cant requires me to "break" my wrist, so I prefer a vertical orientation. But, for concealment purposes, people may position their holsters to the rear of the 3:00 position, and doing so, I can see where having a forward cant (instead of my preferred vertical), would be a more natural position.
This is my experience, too. If the gun is worn directly at the side, I prefer a straight-drop holster, but the further to the rear the holster is worn, the more cant I want, both for additional concealment, and for a smooth draw (my wrist remains straight if the holster has the appropriate degree of angle).
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Old December 30, 2012, 12:33 PM   #23
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FBI = wearing suits. A forward till may also make it easier to draw wearing a suit. Also tucks the pistol butt into the body more that vertical.
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Old December 30, 2012, 11:38 PM   #24
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For me the cant is more about weight distribution. With a three and a half inch barrel 1911, the weight of the grip with full magazine in a vertical weighs more than the slide and makes the gun feel top heavy almost like it will fall out of the holster backwards.
With the holster canted the weight is distributed vertically, and balances on my hip better.
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Old December 30, 2012, 11:56 PM   #25
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When you are driving with CCW, sometimes it bumps seat, so tilt forward helps.
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