Can a .38 bullet be used on a 9mm case?

[Sevens]

You forgot the third group -- in fact you ignored it entirely as if it simply doesn't exist.

The 3rd group: "I did something and my gun didn't blow up, my dog didn't die and my house didn't collapse...thus, it's safe, it's good, it's highly recommended (by me) and though it's an actual experience and I'm not making it up, it doesn't seem to occur to me that it's anecdotal and wasn't done in a controlled lab environment with pressure testing equipment...it's just something I do and therefore, it must be the rule."

First-hand experience is good stuff and it's absolutely a worthwhile addition to the conversation but let's not try to make anything more out of it than what it is, hmm? The experiences you have relayed in this thread is pure good stuff, I find it interesting and I can easily take you at your word. I consider your experience here to be quality evidence should I be considering attempting something similar.

But because you weren't able to discern any signs of excessive pressure surely doesn't mean there wasn't excessive pressure.

Your disdain for the internet and it being the "ultimate..." etc etc is certainly got a nice bit of funny wrapped up inside it's hypocrisy.

[Adamantium]

The third group is the people who ignore the original question and go straight to critiquing other posters. Good call.

You should add your experience of loading .357 bullets into a 9x19mm case, I'd like to hear it.

[res45]

Shooting cast loads in some 9mm handguns can be a PITA because 9 mm bores diameters are all over the place,some require and shoot best with cast bullets that are .356 or .357 and in some case .358.

I have one of those that likes the .358 dia. cast bullets. I tried several common cast bullet designs for the 9mm with bullets sized to .356 and .357 with different alloy,lube and powder combinations,none of them worked and I had pretty much given up on shooting cast in this gun although I was disheartened and lit it lay for awhile I kept doing my research.

Long story short I finally realized that the lands and grooves in my pistols barrel are very shallow and similar in height and depth to what you find in the Marlin Microgroove rifle bores so I purchased a Lee 38 cal. 125 gr. flat base RNFP mold and as typical with all my Lee mold they drop fat bullets so I can size them to fit as need.

I lube and sized them to .358 compensated for the extra bullet dia. by using my Federal brass which is a couple thousands thinner than Win. and some of the other brass I have. I charged the case with 4.0 grs. of HP-38 and loaded them to and OAL of 1.080" which is just right at the beginning of the crimp groove.

I took my little bag of test loads over to the shooting range at my friends house and preceded to put all rds. downrange without a hitch,they all chamber fine I had done the plunk test before hand to make sure of that. They all left nice little round holes in the target no tumbling bullets as I had gotten in the past,brass landed in a nice pile about 4' away and they shot fairly accurately for a test load I have room to tweak that a little later,and of course no leading.



As an added bonus I have another bullet I can shoot in my 38/357 revolvers the .360 dia. as cast work out nice due to my Ruger BH liking a .359 cast bullet best.

[Clark]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I have shot a lot of 158 gr XTP and LSWC bullets in 9x17mm [380], 9x19mm [Luger], and 9x23mm Win.
Those bullets will not fit not fit nicely with the stock 9mm chambers. The bullet diameter is too large and the shoulder of the bullet is too far forward.

1) I modified the chambers. I increased the diameter and length of the throat. The first class ways to do this would be with a custom ordered chamber reamer or a [$35] 0.359" straight fluted chucking reamer from MSC. Alternatively, I have got good results with a 23/64" drill 0.3594".

2) The bullets squish when I am seating them, making their diameters larger, making the fit into the chamber worse. I pre compress the powder with a pin gauge held in a bullet puller collet die in a press. Then when the bullet is seated there is no extra force needed to compress the powder.

3) I resize the loaded ammo. To get the ammo so that it will fall in and fall out of the chamber, I resize the loaded ammo. The typical carbide ring in a 9mm sizer die is .368" while a Lee factory crimp may have a carbide ring of .376". So that ammo is best resized least.

In a Kel-Tec P11, the primer will pierce with 8 gr Power Pistol [about a 50% over load] but is ok up to 11 gr, [about a 100% overload and all that will fit] if I resize the loaded ammo. The recoil is so painful, I don't do it often.

Over sized bullets free to start moving will further along swage down to a smaller bore with out an increase in peak pressure. Yet a bullet pinched and slow to start moving can cause a huge increase in pressure. This is counter intuitive, documented in Ackley's book, and I have verified.

This phenomena of large bullets working in a small bore without pressure spikes is documented in P.O. Ackley 1966 "Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders Vol 2" chapter 7
"additional pressure tests":
"..30 cal barrel pressure barrel was fitted to the test gun, but the neck and throat was enlarged to accept the 8mm bullet, with the bore remaining the standard 30 caliber. A Remington factory 30-06 cartridge with the 150 gr bullet had been tested and previously gave 57,300 psi, for a velocity of 3030 fps. The the bullets were pulled from two more Remington 150 grain cartridges and were replaced with 8mm 150 grain bullets. To everyone's surprise, although the velocity was rather erratic, these loads averaged 2901 fps, with a pressure of 40,700 psi."

[Arkmaker]

Thanks guys for all the information and spirited conversations. Quite a lot to digest. As a new reloader, case thickness is something I did not think about. It doesn't seem to be a problem with my .38 loads, but I can sure see where it could haunt me with my 9's as evident with my last trip to the range.

My last trip to the range brought disappointing results with my 9mm loads. These were .356 cast 9mm RN bullets from Hunters Supply with 4.0 grains of Universal. I used Federal and Remmington cases (mostly Remmintons) I had many jams as the rounds were not ejecting (most of my jams) and also had a tight fit on loading (a few jams). My first mistake was not doing the plunk test right off.

Still want to see if I can get the lead rounds to work. I have 50 of the HS bullets left from the sample pack, so I will do some experimenting with case thickness and try out an Accurate #2 powder charge next. Oh, and test fit the rounds into the chamber using factory loads as a guide. Does that sound right?

Thanks again,
Rich

[Gerry]

Arkmaker, I've never heard of chambering problems from too wide a diameter round using .356" bullets, regardless of 9mm case thickness or brand. I'd look at your OAL first as far as your "tight fit" issues are concerned. Your FTE problem might mean your loads are too weak to cycle your gun properly, or perhaps it's the gun. How do they feel compared to factory rounds? Are the ejected cases dirty on the outside, perhaps with longitudinal dark streaks near the case mouth?

Yes it's a good idea to remove your barrel and try fit a factory round in, just to see where the end of your case is supposed to be in relation to the extractor when its supported by the case mouth. Then try one of your own rounds. Does it drop to the same depth? Press your thumb on the bottom of the case to jam it in really hard. When you turn your barrel upside down does your round fall out on its own after, or do you have to pry it out? If you had to pry it out, look for marks on the bullet caused by contact with the rifling. If you see contact marks, OAL is too long.

[Mike-Mat]

It's one of the reason I reload for 38, 357 9mm and 380 acp. They are all close enough that anything from .355 to .357 will work without problems. Although I generally will go .355/.356 in my 38/357 rounds. I have loaded .357 in my 9mm with no problems. I buy Berry's .356 plated 124gr bullets in quantity, bexause they'll work in both/all (well 124 gr is to big for the 380 ACP, but you get the idea).

Mike

[Arkmaker]

Gerry,
Yes, I do believe that the last loads we to lite in charge. I used 4.0 grains of Universal and the cases were very dirty around the mouth. I will work up another load slightly higher in Universal and try them again.

I just finished loading up (20) a 4.2 grain charge of TiteGroup with 115 grain RN Cast bullets and (10) 4.0 grain charge of TiteGroup with 125 grain FMJ bullets.

I'll add (10) 4.5 gr charge of Universal using the 115gr RN cast bullets to the test case. I am going to figure it out!!

One crappy factor is that I ran out of Federal Primers and only have TulAmmo primers left. Will need to make a run for the gun shop tomorrow and hope they have more in stock.

Thanks for your input. Every thing helps right now!

[Mike-Mat]

I had some problems in my M&P9 when I made my rounds the full length, which I think is 1.165" (Max length per all the books). I generally don't make any 9mm's longer than 1.09" and have not had a jam since.

At first I thought it was bullet diameter also. It was length giving me the problems.

Mike