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Old January 2, 2013, 11:41 PM   #76
Mr. James
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Well, Old Grump,

As one old grump to another (my son and daughter-in-law thought my granddaughter should call me "Grumpa"), you pretty much summed up my approach. I'm old and slow, but if I can stop one of these b******, in any way, I shall do so.
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Old January 2, 2013, 11:55 PM   #77
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Old Grump is confused. So I shall clarify.

I was speaking in the case of Tiner666, not a mass shooting. The scenario he was involved in.

Please read up an catch up on the thread before you start blindly accusing someone over the Internet like an Internet commando. You don't know or what I would or wouldn't do. Your insults were sophomoric and again, blind. Yet slightly entertaining. No need to sum up ones demeanor in a negative way from a LE standpoint on ONE scenario. I know your username is "Old Grump" I see the "grump" part but not the "old" rather childish.


Tiner666, so you're somewhat known in the community enough so that when you call or appear on scene you're trusted I guess. From a LE standpoint.

Powderman summed up my views quite perfectly. I don't need to say anymore on that part if you read his response.

How was that conjured up into being a "coward"? Beats me. Some people have a hard time comprehending what they read.


Anyone can say anything they want here on "what they'd do". Fact of the matter is you don't know 100% unless you've been in that situation before and/or trained to be in that situation. From here it's mostly speculation and all for the sake of conversation.
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Old January 3, 2013, 12:56 AM   #78
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First....

Tinner, I apologize if I seemed like I was casting any aspersions toward you. I did not mean to do so.

If your local LE know you, work with you, and have come to welcome your aid ans assistance, that's a VERY good thing. My experience thus far has taught me that I would not be making a wise decision to respond to a call like that and pass someone who is not an LEO with a drawn gun.

Second...

There is a WORLD of difference in answering a burg call and an active shooter. As has been noted, the active shooter scenario means that caps are being popped and bullets are flying.

I have long maintained that a good guy or girl who is armed can put a halt to that madness really quickly, and usually with good effect.

Of course, when the call goes out and the radio is toned out, I'm doing my level best to redline that engine in the patrol unit, lights on and siren wailing. I'm headed to the scene--and when I get there the rifle gets snatched from the rack and I'm chambering a round to prepare to enter a shootout.

Unfortunately, the sad truth is this: My patrol unit will to around 135 mph, tops. A 55 grain bullet from an AR or other firearm in .223 is moving at 2045 mph. So--by the very nature of the beast, even if we are right around the corner when the balloon goes up, we STILL arrive after the fact.

Apologies to all for the thread jack....
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Old January 3, 2013, 03:21 AM   #79
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Quote:
I was speaking in the case of Tiner666, not a mass shooting. The scenario he was involved in.
I apologize, I have been reading all the posts but I speed read and miss a point here and there and I was reacting to the posters who say you should duck and run when faced with a mass shooter even if you could do something. Not the first time I messed up, and going by my past history won;t be the last but I'll try and slow down and take the context in more carefully.

Bob

Yep, I'm both old and a Grump but mostly I mean well.
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Old January 3, 2013, 07:03 AM   #80
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No offense was taken. I just live on the wrong side of the tracks. Here's a pic I took of a pic I took before going digital. Wasn't too unusual a few years ago.

I try to stay clear of things, but things happen.
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File Type: jpg Body in front yard.jpg (179.6 KB, 23 views)
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Old January 3, 2013, 07:23 AM   #81
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"If your local LE know you, work with you, and have come to welcome your aid ans assistance, that's a VERY good thing. My experience thus far has taught me that I would not be making a wise decision to respond to a call like that and pass someone who is not an LEO with a drawn gun."

I can only say the situation developed. Once out of my vehicle, I was away from the scanner. The first LEO probably explained things well. I was 'near SUL' I think it's called and I moved VERY slowly when the cars started swooping in around me. I had told the first LEO we hadn't seen or heard anything. All ended well.

I've been at scenes where there was active shooting. I try to stay clear of the action. Once while being questioned, more shots rang out. THE LEO's and I all drew and took cover. Instinct and training take over. I couldn't explain it any different. I'd do the same at a mall, but I'm positive I wouldn't clear my holster until I knew what was going on. If feasible, I'm sure I would engage.
The area my shop is in is nicknmaed 'Little Beirut'. One contractor was killed in a robbery because he only had $2.00. The contractor next door said I was too hyper for having a pistol around all the time. Last year, we buried him less than a year after he moved in.

These are instances of how I've interacted with LEO's at crime scenes.
Do I also have to tell about the time the wife and I got to the shop and found two trespassers there and drew on them? Turned out they were undercover LEO's investigating 'last night's' rape and assault on the property. None of us knew the other.
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Old January 3, 2013, 08:21 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Grump View Post
I apologize, I have been reading all the posts but I speed read and miss a point here and there and I was reacting to the posters who say you should duck and run when faced with a mass shooter even if you could do something. Not the first time I messed up, and going by my past history won;t be the last but I'll try and slow down and take the context in more carefully.

Bob

Yep, I'm both old and a Grump but mostly I mean well.
I really didn't expect that. Thanks.

I actually feel the same about that myself. If I instruct the other half or family member to leave out whatever way I say or point them in the direction of, they'd go. I don't understand why people think if you're with them, that they have to be with you when you engage the shooter.

Anything so much as lead flying their way will possibly deter them more than you think. They've recently been people with video game training and chosen a place with no carry allowed for a reason. If we have any chance to drop them and make his appointment with big guns upstairs sooner, then I think that's how it should be dealt with. No more innocence should be taken at the hands of these mass shooters. They're sick and twisted.


Again Bob, thanks for that. Didn't expect it and sorry I came out a little strong myself.

Tinner666, that's a good thing you have going on there. They should offer you a job brother.
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Old January 3, 2013, 10:28 AM   #83
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It is good there is higher level of maturity here and people can get along.

Tinner- I'd really consider finding somewhere else to hang your hat. You have to ask yourself if your life is worth doing whatever it is you are doing in that neighborhood.
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Old January 3, 2013, 01:11 PM   #84
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My wife being pregnant and not her usual, spritely self, I would be much more cautious about getting involved in Tinner666's scenario. In the past, when observing things getting heated, I have cell phoned 911 to suggest an officer might need backup, but I would not approach an officer I did not know unless his straits seemed acutely dire - and even then it would be with caution. I have had a weapon or two aimed my way by LE before, until the situation was verified, and I can't say I enjoyed it.

So, I am willing to help, but the level of help I will offer will vary with circumstances, which include the LEO's perceived level of need, and the feasibility of assisting.

That said, in an active shooter scenario, my first priority is security of loved ones. After that is assured, if I can stop a mad dog, and LE is not there, I will do what I can.

On a similar note, I have assisted at a couple of home fires, but backed off as soon as the shiny red trucks arrived - except for pointing out to the firefighters and paramedics where the origin appeared to be, in one case, and that an old man was likely in the house in the other (he was; they got him out; I kept his dog while he recovered from smoke inhalation over the next several months).

Got out of the way at a vehicle rollover, once the ambulance arrived, too - but my first aid kit had come in handy. A nurse who had also stopped was able to use it to good effect. A Coastie who had also stopped, and thankfully spoke Spanish, was able to help calm the injured kids and their mother. But we all got out of the way when the cavalry arrived.

Personally, that is how I think things should work.
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Old January 4, 2013, 10:13 AM   #85
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The possibility of being shot by police arriving on the scene is not that great, unless there was an extended gun battle.
As they say "when seconds count the police are only minutes away".



I wonder what the exact response times were in the major mass shooting sprees?

Response times to a 911 call are just one factor, how long it takes for someone to make that 911 call is another factor.

It took quite some time for the Colombine duo to track and shoot that many students. If a single person at that school and in the vacinity of the shooting had being carrying he very well might have ended that spree in seconds. Long before the first 911 call went in, and certainly long before the first police showed up.

If I'm not mistaken that seems to be common in such incidents.

Once the shooter is down theirs no need to be standing around with your gun in your hand.

PS
Like Tinner I live in an area where murders and even mass killings are not at all uncommon. Its something you learn to live with.
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Old January 4, 2013, 11:15 AM   #86
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Once the shooter is down theirs no need to be standing around with your gun in your hand.
Maybe. What if the shooter throws down his rifle and surrenders?
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Old January 4, 2013, 11:57 AM   #87
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Maybe. What if the shooter throws down his rifle and surrenders?
From his first shot fired surrender is not an option, I'm not going to arrest anyone in those circumstances. More than a few lawmen have been gut shot by a hide out piece after a BG has thrown down his visible weapon, and if you've noticed multiple firearms are the status quo for these rejects.
The "vigilante" label would not apply, since I'd still consider dropping the shooter as paramount for my safety as well as the safety of others.
If I only severely wounded him to the point that he was no longer any possible threat (unconsious or with spine severed) I would probably let him live, but one way or the other he would go down and stay down.

This sort of situation is extremely atypical, this is not some dumb kid trying to rob a convenient store with a airsoft pistol.
As noted these Darwin award winners go in expecting to die, so any pretense of surrender is almost certainly bogus.

PS
Besides which. Any engagement would last seconds at most. With any luck at all the first and last he saw of me would be a muzzle flash.
There would be no mexican standoffs or "halt or I'll shoot", thats for the movies.
Whether his gun hit the floor before or after my bullet hit his brain would be impossible to say for sure unless caught on a security camera.

Last edited by Rainbow Demon; January 4, 2013 at 12:13 PM.
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Old January 4, 2013, 12:13 PM   #88
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As noted these Darwin award winners go in expecting to die, so any pretense of surrender is almost certainly bogus.
I would say mostly yes, not always.

However:

- You come upon a mass shooting scene
- Someone has just shot someone else
- That person shooting throws down their gun and throws up their hands
- You shoot them

How do you know you did not shoot someone else who was intervening to stop the mass shooting? In fact it could even be you if the person being shot the first time was unarmed.
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Old January 4, 2013, 12:39 PM   #89
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I would say mostly yes, not always.

However:

- You come upon a mass shooting scene
- Someone has just shot someone else
- That person shooting throws down their gun and throws up their hands
- You shoot them

How do you know you did not shoot someone else who was intervening to stop the mass shooting? In fact it could even be you if the person being shot the first time was unarmed.
Again you seem to be speaking of a situation that would take far longer than the subject "engaging an active shooter" would actually take.
If I were in a public place and a mall ninja carrying multiple firearms opens up on a crowd I don't think I would have any difficulty in identifying who is the actual threat.
The entire engagement would take less time than it takes to type this sentence. There won't be any calvary charging to the rescue before an expended case hits the floor.
If there were any LEO already in the room then they had better have been firing on the same guy before I did.

How long does it take to "throw down his gun and throw up his hands"?
How long does it take to pull a trigger?
If he is in my sights he would not live long enough to drop his piece much less throw up his hands.

PS
In a couple of books written by WW1 veterans they mention how German Machinegunners would continue firing to the very last second, then throw up their hands in surrender. By that time surrender was not an option so far as those they had been shooting at were concerned. The German gunners were lucky if they were shot to death immediately.
Those were soldiers doing their duty, and they paid a heavy price. A mass murderer can expect no better.

Also have you ever studied the drills that government security guards armed with the M4 or similar carbines practice till its second nature?
If the carbine jams they do not try to clear the jamm, instead they drop the carbine and draw their sidearm in one smooth motion, continuing to lay down fire without missing a beat.
Someone dropping a carbine does not mean they are out of the fight.

I ran across that last tidbit in several sources. For some time, late 90's early 2000's at least, Airforce hostage rescue team carbines were built on early type uppers with no forward assist. the reasoning being that any jam of a well maintained AR type rifle would likely be one that could not be dealt with quickly enough. From reports of jams involving the M4 in combat that appears to be true.
Clearing a jam while you have a platoon backing you up, and the enmy hundreds of meters away may be an option. Trying to clear a jam when you are in the middle of laying down covering fire at ranges more likely measured in tens of meters would leave yourself or other swinging in the wind for seconds that seem like hours.

Last edited by Rainbow Demon; January 4, 2013 at 01:07 PM.
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Old January 4, 2013, 01:04 PM   #90
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If I were in a public place and a mall ninja carrying multiple firearms opens up on a crowd I don't think I would have any difficulty in identifying who is the actual threat.
You might in that case. It might not always be so clear. If you are going to shoot someone you need to be really, really sure. Especially if you are planning on shooting someone who is surrendering. That would be one I would not want to get wrong.
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Old January 4, 2013, 01:11 PM   #91
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If I'm suddenly struck momentarily blind between the time he opens up on the crowd and the moment I start putting holes in him you might have a point.

People carry handguns for self defense, they don't carry M4 carbines and a pump shotgun slung over their shoulder when going to the movies or for a night out at Olive Garden.

BTW
I thought it was clear that surrender is not an option.
As for LEO coming on the scene, how many times have we heard of a cop shooting a kid because he thought the kids cellphone was a pistol, or similar situations?

Not having a gun in your hand is no garantee that you won't get shot by police.
Running away is certainly no garatee that the active shooter won't plug you in the spine, in fact they'd be more likely to shoot anyone who makes a break for it.

As I said earlier there are acceptable risks.
If you want to be perfectly safe then stay home in bed. Never go to any public places. Then at least you will die at home, where most crime victims die.

Last edited by Rainbow Demon; January 4, 2013 at 01:19 PM.
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Old January 4, 2013, 01:18 PM   #92
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Some TFL members carry ARs in their vehicles, though. It's not inconceivable that a responder could grab a long gun from his or her car, and head toward the gunfire.
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Old January 4, 2013, 01:23 PM   #93
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Some TFL members carry ARs in their vehicles, though. It's not inconceivable that a responder could grab a long gun from his or her car, and head toward the gunfire.
Then they'd be wise not to start shooting down innocent bystanders in front of me or pointing their rifle at me.

If a full on gunfight between the active shooter and a would be rescuer armed with a rifle is going on, then I'd bow out long enough to see who is who before taking further action.

And again, its almost certain that the shooting would be over with before they got there.
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Old January 4, 2013, 01:26 PM   #94
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I was responding to your assumption that anybody carrying a rifle or shotgun would just about automatically be a bad guy.

I think you make a lot of assumptions, and some of them could get you shot by LE, and some of them could put you in prison.

Maybe you don't... but what you've written would imply that you do.
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Old January 4, 2013, 01:34 PM   #95
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I think its more a matter of some making the assumption that I'm blind deaf and dumb and can't recognize just who in the room is the thrill killer shooting down people right and left all around me.

Would you rather stand trial or lay belly up to the sun with no place to go but in the ground?

If a man points a gun at me regardless of whats in his mind he is a threat that must be dealt with.
Thrill killers often work in pairs.

Only Jesse Owens could dig a carbine from his trunk or from behind a seat and run from a parking lot into a theatre or mall before I could empty a magazine into the "Active Shooter".
In that same length of time an active shooter with no opposition could kill twenty people.
By the time they could enter, cold with no idea of whats going on, the party would be over.
Acceptable risk with odds on saving the lives of twenty or more intended victims.

PS
It occurs to me that all this worrying about possibly facing charges or possibly getting shoot by late arriving police or other would be rescuers that come on the scene cold and ignorant would take up just enough time to get someone killed and leave the "active Shooter" still active and blazing away on the crowd.
Over thinking a situation will get you killed quicker than following you instincts.
I don't cling to life nearly so much these days. Whatever comes willcome, a I don't expect to end up dead with a my piece still in the holster due to hesitation because I was worried about possibly going to court.

Last edited by Rainbow Demon; January 4, 2013 at 01:51 PM.
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Old January 4, 2013, 01:45 PM   #96
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Let's look at the assumptions you are making now...

1) You assume you will be in the immediate vicinity of the shooter as soon as he begins shooting. Otherwise, it would not require Jesse Owens to grab a gun and arrive on scene before you could accomplish your feats of legendary shooting prowess.

2) You assume that you will see the shots fired, yet be in position to draw and engage before you are noticed by the shooter.

I have one friend who has responded to an active shooter. He was not in the room where the event started. (School, in SoCal.) He was the first deputy to arrive on scene, and he chased down the shooter, solo, instead of waiting for backup. He told me that Columbine was still fresh in everybody's head, and all his peers had agreed they would not stay outside while an active shooter did his work.

But the point is, he was not right there when the shooting started, but instead he ran to the threat.

So, for your arguments to hold water, we have to assume you will be virtually on top of the shooter, in a position to observe the shooter, yet screened from his awareness when he starts his rampage.

Take one or two of those assumptions away, and your arguments fall apart.

I am not saying not to engage. I am saying you really need to positively identify the threat, not just identify that a guy has a gun. I am also saying you need to brush up on deadly force laws, because some of the things you are espousing, such as not accepting surrender, period, would put you in prison.
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Old January 4, 2013, 01:49 PM   #97
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Quote:
If a man points a gun at me regardless of whats in his mind he is a threat that must be dealt with.
Thrill killers often work in pairs.
The case of mass shooters working in pairs or more is a rarity but it happens.

Quote:
I think its more a matter of some making the assumption that I'm blind deaf and dumb and can't recognize just who in the room is the thrill killer shooting down people right and left all around me.
I am making an assumption that you did not see the shooter suddenly start shooting. You may not have even been there when the shooting started (say you came upon the scene or someone came upon you holding a gun). This is more likely as active shooters move around a bit and people start moving all directions when shooting starts.

If you plan on shooting everyone with a gun (remember you just talked transition fire) as a threat and you shoot them, even the ones who are surrendering than you could just as easily shoot someone who is not the mass shooter.

Anyone following your advice could just as easily shoot you.

ETA- Just as M Leake stated. We posted at the same time.

PID is your friend.
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Old January 4, 2013, 02:05 PM   #98
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The only situation I can evision where I'd take on an active shooter would be if he was right there in front of me shooting down innocent people. I'm no rambo who carries an AR in my trunk hoping to play cops and robbers.

My eyesight is not so bad that I could not see a man firing a rifle into a crowd.
On the otherhand to the shooter I'd be just another person in the crowd of intended victims till I opened up on him.

As for feats of legendary shooting prowess, anyone who can't put all his shots in a human torso at fifty feet or less needs to practice , I've had a lot of practice in the last fifty years or so.

If someone throws down on me they might as well shoot because that may be the only thing that saves their life. Then they can be the one to go to court and explain why they shot the man who brought down a psycho mass murderer before said psycho could claim more victims.
Its not a perfect world, and I'm certainly not perfect. If my blood is up theres no telling what might happen.

PS
If a psycho is shooting people right and left, people will go in all directions, except towards the shooter. In a moment the shooter will have cleared an area around him self one way or another.
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Old January 4, 2013, 02:10 PM   #99
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I see now. We had a different vision of the scenario. This is why these things on the internet are difficult.

Quote:
If a psycho is shooting people right and left, people will go in all directions, except towards the shooter.
You might be surprised.
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Old January 4, 2013, 04:37 PM   #100
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Holmes stood in front of the theater dressed in black and wearing a gas mask. He was back lit by the screen. Nobody could get to the front exit without going past him, 112 people all trying to get out the back door were massed together making it easy for him. smoke or no smoke nobody was running towards him and it was obvious who the shooter was, where he was and what his intention was. Because all of the people there legally complied with theater policy and were unarmed for their own safety were literally fish in a barrel. One person with a reasonable amount of marksmanship skill and a cool head could have taken Homes out before he killed 12 people.

Lanza was in a gun free zone made so for the express purpose of making a safe environment for the staff and students. He was the only one armed, the only one shooting and nobody could do a thing about it. People bblame the Bushmaster which was not used and they blame his aspergers which rarely ever leads to violence, there were other issues but the biggest one was that nobody could protect the children, one teacher, maintenance man, parent, visiting vendor, somebody, anybody armed with a gun and a reasonable amount of skill could have stopped Lanza, there was no doubt in anybody's mind who was doing the shooting.

When Roberts went on his shooting rampage at the Clackamas mall it was obvious who was the spree shooter. The sight of one person with a gun and the spree ended. Anybody see a pattern here?
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