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Old January 1, 2013, 08:55 PM   #51
Anaconda1492
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The batman theater shooting was just diabolical in nature. It is a situation were perhaps if one or two people had a gun in the theater, it might not of have done anything. However, even though he threw smoke people could likely still see the flash of his rifle. In less he had a flash suppressor, but even then the sound would emanate from one area. The element of surprise is an advantage the spree shooters have. However, if one has a weapon on them that element is also transferred to you. For instance, he doesn't know who has the gun so he won't be able to shoot you first. Furthermore, it would cause the shooter to perhaps at least run for cover or fear for his life this could prevent more deaths until the cops come. In some situations yes unfortunately even having a gun would not help. But, certainly not all of them, the intimidation factor of being shoot at will certainly ring in the killers mind and decisions. For example, watch the actions of these cowards once the police arrive IE either surrender or commit suicide.Now, if everyone had a gun they likely would all know where the bad guy is at. For example, if you are at a party and one person starts throwing water ballon's you all know who threw it first and from where.

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Old January 1, 2013, 08:57 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Dee
" ... some imagine a confrontation with an active shooter to be some long protracted shootout lasting long enough for the police to arrive minutes later. Protracted shootings are very rare. I cant see engaging a shooter for any longer than it would take for me to make two or three shots. ..."
The evidence supports your claim almost universally. The overwhelming tendency of active-shooters is to commit suicide at first sign of any serious resistance. This also negates the "how can I go up against a guy with a rifle?" notion.
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Old January 1, 2013, 09:10 PM   #53
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I would venture to say that most of these spree shootings could of been negated or terminated if a law abiding citizen engaged the shooter. How many active shootings have happened at a gun shop? They want a hot knife and a piece of butter. However, I think access to basic firearm defensive training should be more affordable and available to common citizens.

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Old January 1, 2013, 10:55 PM   #54
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As for the police mistaking me for the bad guy, I'd be no deader with a cop's bullet in me than I would be with the bad guy's bullet in my back. I'd see it as an acceptable risk.
I've been badly injured and come very close to losing my life while at work and while enjoying the outdoors, theres some level of risk in just about anything you do.
A Tombstone that said "killed while stopping a mass murder's shooting spree" (maybe with a tasteful bias relief of the fallen Leonidas carved on my foot stone) sounds a lot better than "run over by a speed boat while trying out a sail board", or "camp stove blew up" and the incident caught on video to be shown endlessly on youtube.
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Old January 1, 2013, 11:35 PM   #55
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Ha, Rainbow Demon,

My sentiments exactly. I'm an old guy who will move towards the fire, circumstances dictating, doing what I can. While the possibility of a responding officer shooting me in the back is very real, I think it's far back in line.
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Old January 1, 2013, 11:52 PM   #56
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FWIW, I teach judgmental use-of-force and gunfighting tactics to law enforcement and armed private security agencies nationwide. The info provided by the OP is spot on.
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Old January 2, 2013, 08:56 AM   #57
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Quote:
I would venture to say that most of these spree shootings could of been negated or terminated if a law abiding citizen engaged the shooter. How many active shootings have happened at a gun shop?
You do realize that "active shooting" means the period of time in which shots are being fired, right? So lots of "active shootings" have happened in gun shops, but not too many mass shootings. Of course, there aren't all that many gun shops and of the ones that exist, most are fairly small operations. Given that mass/spree/rampage shooters tend to do their deeds where they have some direct connection, usually where they have had or perceive to have had some sort of trouble or conflict.
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Old January 2, 2013, 02:03 PM   #58
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What if Heroes were the Norm?

What if You read in the newspaper or on the internet or saw on TV, the story of a Hero, who stepped up and took action, and even though You and Everyone Honor that Hero, You realize in a Nation of like minded People that You and almost Everyone Else would have done the same thing?

What if a mass murderer in a School or Movie Theater or Shopping Mall or Restaurant would be confronted by a Fire Team or a Squad or even a Platoon of Legal Concealed Carrying Citizens intent on stopping him in his tracks?

What if every would be mass murderer knew they would be confronted by Law Enforcement or the Military or an Army of Concealed Carrying Citizens as soon as they fired a weapon.

What if the General Public and the Government looked upon an Army of Concealed Carrying Citizens instead of a danger, as Guns for the Common Good?

What if the General Public and the Government looked upon an Army of Citizens with Firearms as a deterrent against Foreign Invasion or even our own Government?

What if we as Concerned Citizens through the NRA started a fund, not for all shootings, but for these mass shootings, a fund to help the Surviving Victims and the Families of the Surviving Victims and the Fallen in their time of need?

What if we started an organization called “Citizens Against Gun Violence” with members who were only “Pro Gun” but concerned about finding solutions to the mental health problems of these mass murderers?

What if We as a People, had the Courage to look out for Everyone, realizing if that were ingrained in Society as a whole, our Country would be a safer and better place for our Loved Ones?

We as Firearms Owners need to forget our differences and come together because we have one heck of a PR Campaign to win.

What if?
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Old January 2, 2013, 02:45 PM   #59
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A for instance. Wife and I came up on a B&E. Told PD was several minutes away. I told dispatch we'd stay in the vicinity and try to get any descriptions. We parked 1/2 block or so away where we could see the front, one side of building, and some of the rear 'yard'.
First responder arrived and backup said he was 10 minutes away. (I have a scanner.) I flashed my lights, stepped out and slowly drew and held my weapon up, flat-side out and said I would cover him from the sidewalk. He reported that and went in with me covering the doorway.
When 3-4 more cars rolled up, I went to a relaxed position, weapon pointed up and most went past me into the building. At least two thanked me as I reholstered. I stayed outside and gave a report when all was 10-4.
You did a...what?

You're on the job, aren't you?
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Old January 2, 2013, 03:15 PM   #60
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Quote:
Quote:
A for instance. Wife and I came up on a B&E. Told PD was several minutes away. I told dispatch we'd stay in the vicinity and try to get any descriptions. We parked 1/2 block or so away where we could see the front, one side of building, and some of the rear 'yard'.
First responder arrived and backup said he was 10 minutes away. (I have a scanner.) I flashed my lights, stepped out and slowly drew and held my weapon up, flat-side out and said I would cover him from the sidewalk. He reported that and went in with me covering the doorway.
When 3-4 more cars rolled up, I went to a relaxed position, weapon pointed up and most went past me into the building. At least two thanked me as I reholstered. I stayed outside and gave a report when all was 10-4.

Quote:
You did a...what?

You're on the job, aren't you?

I second Powdermans question. Are you on watch?

Vigilante moves are really grey to most people.
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Old January 2, 2013, 04:02 PM   #61
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Vigilante moves are really grey to most people.
That is not an example of vigilantism at all even if he is not a police officer.
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Old January 2, 2013, 04:16 PM   #62
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That is not an example of vigilantism at all even if he is not a police officer.
So what would you call it?

Someone not trained to assist someone who is trained and doing their job, isn't very wise unless it's life or death.

I wouldn't let a person who isn't a law enforcement officer assist me, especially armed. If they want to assist so much, join the force. I don't know them, their intentions, or anything at all.

I asked the OP that I quoted for his reasoning. As I do not know, maybe he was off duty?

Regardless to add. He was with his wife, who most likely was in the line of fire as well. For what? A breaking and entering? Is it that worth it?

Leave it to law enforcement.
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Old January 2, 2013, 04:42 PM   #63
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In many places it is the law that if a law enforcement officer requests assistance from people in making an arrest that people are required to provide it. Texas provides an example of that with it written into the state legal code. Refusal to provide assistance can result in the arrest and prosecution of the refuser as well.

Vigilantism is working outside the law. Assisting an officer is; assisting a law enforcement officer in his duties.

Quote:
Regardless to add. He was with his wife, who most likely was in the line of fire as well. For what? A breaking and entering? Is it that worth it?
I am not sure I understand. Is your post implying that his wife can not assist also? So far as "worth it" I can't really say. People need to make up their own mind about that.
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Old January 2, 2013, 04:53 PM   #64
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Yeah, assistance was sufficient enough. Calling it in.

Personally I blame the officers on scene.


And no...I didn't see anywhere in his story of his wife assisting. Did you?
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Old January 2, 2013, 04:58 PM   #65
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I'm in Northern California, and the picture changes pretty radically depending upon which department you are dealing with. The Sheriff's deputies I know are pretty vocal about the fact that they are (mostly) grateful when an armed citizen offers assistance. This is likely because they cover a wide territory and are often on calls alone. Backup is far away. It also has something to do with the fact that they actively court a positive relationship with hunters and CCW carriers.

Some of the local PD are less inclined towards any citizen involvement, and actively dissuade it. I imagine this has to do with the fact that uniformed backup is usually pretty close by.
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Old January 2, 2013, 05:24 PM   #66
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^ you see. Now that makes sense. Given the area.

Here in Miami, where you said something about back up being close? Is exactly where my head is.

Good point. A city has better back up close by.
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Old January 2, 2013, 05:51 PM   #67
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Perhaps a bit of clarification...

There are quite a few variables that are not mentioned here. Is the poster in active law enforcement--either full time or as a reserve/auxiliary officer? If not, are they well known to local LE?

Is the poster retired LE?

Is the poster on duty as a Security Officer?

If the answer is none of the above, then...well, let me put it to you all this way: If I am dispatched to a burg call, alarm or break in and I arrive and see you drawing a firearm--guess what? You just earned yourself some time in the prone position while I relieve you of your firearm, place you in restraints, and find out what you're doing.

Why, you might ask? After all, you are simply stepping up and trying to help...right?

Folks...I DON'T KNOW THAT. Neither I or any other officer knows that.

I do not know what you're doing. You might be a good guy. You might also be the armed lookout for those people inside. I just don't know.

And I'm sure not betting my life on you being the good guy until I find out for certain.

If it's sorted out fairly quickly, I am going to tell you to get your wife out of harm's way, and KEEP THAT DOGGONED GUN HOLSTERED for the time being.

Moreover, unless someone is in immediate danger, I am NOT going in there by myself. There are faster ways to commit suicide.

Finally, if I involve you at any stage of the process, guess what? I have now assumed full liability for your health and well being. I've also put my Department at liability.

Yeah, it stinks, but that's the way it is.

Would I ask the regular Joes and Janes for help if I needed it? Of course I will. And--if I or another officer is taking fire and someone engages the BG from defilade and takes them down, that's very well appreciated, thank you very much.

This is a building clearing scenario from another post...

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...4&postcount=49

Summary: you do NOT want to be the one standing there with a gun in your hand when we arrive on a hot call. Not a good choice...at all.
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Old January 2, 2013, 07:03 PM   #68
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..well, let me put it to you all this way
I hear you. Not everywhere is like that.
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Old January 2, 2013, 08:49 PM   #69
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So what would you call it?

Someone not trained to assist someone who is trained and doing their job, isn't very wise unless it's life or death.

I wouldn't let a person who isn't a law enforcement officer assist me, especially armed. If they want to assist so much, join the force. I don't know them, their intentions, or anything at all.

I asked the OP that I quoted for his reasoning. As I do not know, maybe he was off duty?

Regardless to add. He was with his wife, who most likely was in the line of fire as well. For what? A breaking and entering? Is it that worth it?

Leave it to law enforcement.
And if it was you and your family being shot at and a civilian non leo concealed carrier had a chance to stop the shooter with a single shot you would want him to keep his gun holstered and sneak out of there thereby saving himself and leaving everybody else at risk. I pray I am never in an accident and you are the first one on the scene because you are exactly the kind of guy who would turn his back and leave fearing you might get inconvenienced, your shoes might get soiled and it would take precious minutes of your time to render first aid and call for an ambulance.

Vigilantism is gearing up to punish somebody you assume is a law breaker without benefit of lawmen, judge or jury, you are the sole judge.

A man taking out a spree shooter if he is capable of doing so is a good citizen. Apparently a lot of people find that to be a hard concept to grasp.
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Old January 2, 2013, 09:06 PM   #70
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I second Powdermans question. Are you on watch?

Vigilante moves are really grey to most people.
Apparently he is a roofer.
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Old January 2, 2013, 10:05 PM   #71
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I've served in the military. Even spent a few years as a security officer. Had some police training. My 'bearing and/or demeanor may have had something to do with his response. Backup was several minutes away. Wife was armed but stayed out of the way in the car. I offered, he accepted.
The area in question is very bad. About 50 murders within a few blocks. Several at my shop. He may even have recognized me from some other incident. My home isn't far away and once a police chase ended a block from there. The LEO in foot pursuit banged on the house as he went past and asked me to back him up. THAT ONE got complicated when 7-8 more PD showed up!

Once, we saw PD lose a footchase. I knew hte area and asked if the two LEO's wanted to ride in the back of the truck. They did and we rounded up two bad guys. A crowd of about 70-80 gathered while waiting for backup which was 30 minutes away. Some A-hole in the crowd drew on the cops and I drew on himbefore the LEO quite realized what was happening. The hole took off running as backup arrived too at the same time.

Look up Blackwell, Hillside Court, Essex Village in Richmond Va. My base of operations, FWIW.
Not a vigilante.
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Old January 2, 2013, 10:13 PM   #72
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"If the answer is none of the above, then...well, let me put it to you all this way: If I am dispatched to a burg call, alarm or break in and I arrive and see you drawing a firearm--guess what? You just earned yourself some time in the prone position while I relieve you of your firearm, place you in restraints, and find out what you're doing."

From my call, PD knew a civilian was in the area. I flashed my lights, got out and said I could cover his back, and I slowly drew, palming my firearm, holding it out and above my head. He said OK. I wasn't the least bit threatening.

It seemed like a good idea at the time. PD seem to appreciate good citizens.
If I was in NYC, I'd turn my back and let them stew in their own mess.

The area is one that for years, PD was not allowed to even exit the vehicle until one or two more units arrived.
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Old January 2, 2013, 10:19 PM   #73
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This was a B&E? A burglary? With a witnessed subject going inside? Why would ANY LEO then enter the building? Surround the building. The guy will come out either sooner (if he doesn't know you're there) or later (if he does know you're there).

I can't see ANY situation where ANY LEO should be entering a B&E at that initial point in the scenario. Never mind the "unknown citizen covering me" aspect.


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Old January 2, 2013, 10:27 PM   #74
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Negative on witnessing the perp. Storefront window and door both busted out. Just one of those things that happened.
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Old January 2, 2013, 11:10 PM   #75
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"I've been badly injured and come very close to losing my life while at work and while enjoying the outdoors, theres some level of risk in just about anything you do. "

Life isn't perfect we must accept that with guns and people their will be shootings. The same way that we accept that if we have cars people will die in accidents or even vehicular homicide, or if we have food people will die from heart attacks, or if we have cigarettes people will get cancer. Its a fact of life, perhaps we should ban all these things? You chances of getting shoot at indiscriminately are VERY VERY LOW, which is amazing considering the amount of guns in the country. Furthermore, you can even reduce the affects of these shootings if you are armed in most situations. Again life isn't perfect sometimes the bad way will get the upper hand. With unarmed law abiding citizens we almost guarantee he will continue killing til police arrive. By the time they do arrive at that point it is likely the action will be over and you wont have to worry about being shoot at by a cop.

You do realize that "active shooting" means the period of time in which shots are being fired, right? So lots of "active shootings" have happened in gun shops, but not too many mass shootings.

Well obviously they prove that having an armed citizen could help the situation, which is the point I was really aiming for.

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