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Old December 29, 2012, 02:08 PM   #26
Glenn Dee
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A wide variety of soloutions here. As with everyone else... I have my own.

There are some people for whom their personal survival is of the highest priority. Nothing wrong with that... It's most human. There are others who have different priorities. Those who are willing to risk sacrificing themself for the better of their community or society. Some will expidite out of the danger zone... some will stand and give it their best shot.

No shame in either. I believe myself to be one of those who will stand and fight. If I have a gun I'll fight with the gun... if I have a knife that will have to do. The one thing I am equipped with is my belief that I will prevail... against any odds. I never enter a confrontation with a defeatist attitude. I dont believe I can win... I KNOW I CAN WIN!

If you practice hed shots... you will make head shots.
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Old December 29, 2012, 03:19 PM   #27
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Avoiding blue-on-blue fratricide is hard enough when the good guys are wearing uniforms and the bad guys are wearing man-dresses. Imagine the professionals responding where everyone is a potential threat and there you are running around with your weapon. You're liable to get shot.

It's not about defeatist attitudes or anything else. It's understanding your limitations and that you're liable to make it worse by trying running to the sound of the guns.

Imagine if everyone in the Colorado Theater has been packing, they'd of been shooting each other right-and-left as nobody who knew who the bad guy was and he was smart using smoke to obscure his movements.

There's no one-size-fits-all answers to anything and maybe you'll save the day, but imagining that you're going to gloriously intervene is largely internet commando talk as opposed to a serious appraisal of what you're going to do.
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Old December 29, 2012, 06:26 PM   #28
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So the consensus is there might be a police officer in the vicinity so armed people should run and hide so they won't get killed trying to stop a bad man. They might as well stay home with their gun if they have to worry about that too. Bad guys is bad enough but now we have to worry about friendly fire? What if there is no policeman handy or if he just left his gun in the rest room, can we do something then or should we still run and hide and watch the doofus with a gun shoot people who are exposed. Should we take notes so we can be good witnesses? Inquiring minds want to know.
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Old December 29, 2012, 08:18 PM   #29
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Grump
...Bad guys is bad enough but now we have to worry about friendly fire?...
Yes of course we have to worry about friendly fire. Undercover cops and other good guys have in fact been mistakenly shot or killed by LEOs. It is a real life concern.

And it's just one of the factors that make dealing with an active shooter a problematic activity.
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Old December 29, 2012, 08:30 PM   #30
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Lets see, possibility of one or two people being wounded by friendly fire vs fifty people being shot down like dogs, I think I'd accept the risk.
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Old December 29, 2012, 09:16 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClydeFrog View Post
The Ayoob clip wasn't that complex & the training drill was not slanted.
As Massad Ayoob explained, the students(all veteran LE trainers, armed professionals or military spec ops) had to take a older family member to the airport in a SUV & be ready to engage a threat at any time.
What the seminar members did not know was that a cadre was hidden under a pile of gear & bags. Only Ayoob and a medical professional who deals with LE, quickly IDed the threat(bad guy). That's out of 130 students.
A few students did engage the armed subject but were "killed".
Some did nothing & complied with the "bad guy". They were murdered at point blank range. Ayoob remarked that the training drill left a few of the seminar members with PTSD & mental health issues.
The video clip is worth viewing. Ayoob is a "straight shooter" & has taught 100s of armed citizens/sworn LE officers.

Clyde
Can you provide the link?
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Old December 29, 2012, 10:27 PM   #32
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Yes of course we have to worry about friendly fire. Undercover cops and other good guys have in fact been mistakenly shot or killed by LEOs. It is a real life concern.

And it's just one of the factors that make dealing with an active shooter a problematic activity.
So leave the gun at home, bring camera, pen and notebook and bullet proof underwear.
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Old December 29, 2012, 11:19 PM   #33
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Unless there happens to be a friendly policeman on the scene when the shooting starts you have 10-20 minutes if history is a lesson before the calvary arrives.

If an active shooter is dressed up like the last few, it should be fairly obvious WHO the BG is. I am going to engage anyway, that is not internet commando, that is old cop. Don't believe me? Don't care.
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Old December 30, 2012, 01:15 AM   #34
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I think Alabamashooter pointed it out very well that these "points of interest" are speculative, unspecific and very anecdotal.
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Old December 30, 2012, 01:34 AM   #35
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Nanuk...^5 One old cop to another.
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Old December 30, 2012, 07:08 PM   #36
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Avoiding blue-on-blue fratricide is hard enough when the good guys are wearing uniforms and the bad guys are wearing man-dresses.
If you are talking about transvestites I can see where there would be a lot of confusion about who is who and what when people are not wearing gender appropriate clothing, especially if you are unused to such a situation.

If you are talking about dishdashas it is pretty insulting in Arab culture to call someone a transvestite when they are not.
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Old December 30, 2012, 09:38 PM   #37
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"The last thing I'd do is try to take on an active-shooter (especially one armed with a rifle) with a handgun and only engage in gunplay as a last resort."

I would have thought encountering an active shooter constitutes a last resort situation.
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Old December 31, 2012, 09:51 AM   #38
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Old December 31, 2012, 02:29 PM   #39
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"The last thing I'd do is try to take on an active-shooter (especially one armed with a rifle) with a handgun and only engage in gunplay as a last resort."

I would have thought encountering an active shooter constitutes a last resort situation.
How many people does the active shooter have to shoot before you venture to do something about it or doesn't it matter as long as he isn't shooting at you or your family?
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Old December 31, 2012, 02:39 PM   #40
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How many people does the active shooter have to shoot before you venture to do something about it or doesn't it matter as long as he isn't shooting at you or your family?
That is a quandary is it not? People will have to make up their own minds about this.
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Old December 31, 2012, 03:53 PM   #41
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I think some of you are overthinking the friendly fire thing.
Once, when under fire, the PD came up from behind. My pistol was in hand and I was behind cover. I saw them and waved them in. It was obvious to them that I wasn't the one firing the shots. Point man came up, and as I holstered. pointed the area of interest out, and gave a sit-rep, he waved the others in. I was thanked and went to the rear for debriefing.
It's not rocket science, unless you're charging down the mall yourself.

The reality will be one of 3-4 things.
1. You'll be in earshot of the event and evacuate.
2. You'll be downrange at a distance and take cover and shield whoever you can and I assume take up a position from cover. And unless your position is untenable due to an advancing adversary, you probably will never fire a shot.
3.You'll be downrange and it'll be you and him, along with all the other poor souls near you.
4. Or, just maybe, you'll be in his 'four-to-eight oclock' and if offered a clear downrange, you can engage. Maybe.

There will be many variations, but for us civilians to fully engage like Nanuk will may lead to complications, so to speak. Like charging down the mall and catching friendly fire. Unless you're with, not near, but with a LEO and helping him. Keep word is 'with'.

A for instance. Wife and I came up on a B&E. Told PD was several minutes away. I told dispatch we'd stay in the vicinity and try to get any descriptions. We parked 1/2 block or so away where we could see the front, one side of building, and some of the rear 'yard'.
First responder arrived and backup said he was 10 minutes away. (I have a scanner.) I flashed my lights, stepped out and slowly drew and held my weapon up, flat-side out and said I would cover him from the sidewalk. He reported that and went in with me covering the doorway.
When 3-4 more cars rolled up, I went to a relaxed position, weapon pointed up and most went past me into the building. At least two thanked me as I reholstered. I stayed outside and gave a report when all was 10-4.
YMMV.
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Old January 1, 2013, 08:48 AM   #42
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As unlikely that it is for me to ever be in a place that active shooters seem to find so attractive it is necessary to think it through.

If with family, they are number one and we put distance between us and the shooter as fast as possible. If pinned down defend them with everything I got.

If by myself my first instinct would be to stick around and help. However, the heroic attempt carries a huge set of probable negatives:
dealing with cops doing their job (absolutely no disrespect intended),
jail time - loss of income / job,
possible criminal charges,
attorney expenses,
time in court - loss of income / job,
shooters lawsuits / family,
collateral victims lawsuits / families,
property damage lawsuits,
etc.

Remember, it's 2013 USA
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Old January 1, 2013, 09:22 AM   #43
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No shame in either. I believe myself to be one of those who will stand and fight. If I have a gun I'll fight with the gun... if I have a knife that will have to do. The one thing I am equipped with is my belief that I will prevail... against any odds. I never enter a confrontation with a defeatist attitude. I dont believe I can win... I KNOW I CAN WIN!
Excellent point!! This is what it really comes down to doesn't? Make the choice before hand, prepare the mind and body, because when the shots are being fired, particularly in your direction, all you will have is what you have programmed into that section of the brain that completely takes over when your life is on the line (the mid-brain). Having served many years as an LEO, with several hundreds of hours of SWAT/Tactical training, including active shooter drills, I believe I am thoroughly programmed to run towards the active shooter and I have already made that decision in my mind.

One thing about the friendly fire issue. I do see some concerns with it but when the monster is destroying innocent lives, I think it is just one of those justifiable risks that you have to take. Interestingly enough, there have been very few situations involving active shooters where there was an armed individual in the immediate vicinity and even fewer times when a uniformed officer was right there on scene. I suggest that it is highly likely that the majority of the killing will be over before the first uniform arrives.
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Old January 1, 2013, 10:11 AM   #44
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I disagree with the one recent post. Some of these "active shooters" may not have formal skill training or be ex-military/LE but their mental state & skill with video games(first person shooter) may aid their marksmanship.
As I posted in the past(before the awful Sandy Hook school shooting), there was a young boy who shot 15 of his 17 victims in the head. He later told investigators he never fired a real weapon but played a lot of video games.
Yep, and unskilled shooter was able to make a lot of effective head shots. Some folks argue against head shots based on their skill and training, and yet head shots are often quite effective. There is, however, a time and place for taking such shots and the bad guy has the luxury of hitting bystanders that a good guy does not have (ala New York cops).

I find it interesting that "we" (various gun folks) cast dispersions on bad guy skills by noting how the bad guys may be untrained, indicating that somehow bad guys are less effective or not able to handle conflict, but yet many of us think that putting guns into the hands of teachers or other CCW folks is an effective defense against active shooters when said teachers and MOST ccw folks probably have less gun time than do the bad guys. Yes, some of us are well trained, are LEO or military trained, attend numerous gun schools, teach shooting, and/or own our own gun ranges, but as far as CCW folks go, we are a completely different group of people in terms of training and skills, worlds apart.

Quote:
10). Last, consider that there may be a reason why God (or fate if you wish) put you, armed and trained, at that very spot and place in time, with the ability to save innocents. This is the life-giving sword (or gun in this context) that some ancient warriors discussed in their writings.
In one is to invoke divine reasoning or preordination for placing you at a shooting, then you must consider that you may not be there for the purpose of saving innocents, but because God or fate wants you dead, or put more kindly, that it is your time to be called home. You may be the lamb, not the lion, even if you are a lamb armed to the teeth.
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Old January 1, 2013, 10:59 AM   #45
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Good point, DNS.

I'll also state that a mediocre shot, who is hell bent on killing, is going to be a lot more effective than a IPSC champ who can't bring himself to fire on a human being- or hesitates too long if he does make the decision.

This is precisely the reason we train cops to make the force decision based solely on the other party's actions. You do A, I do B. It minimizes hesitation, thinking too long or anguishing about what must be done. You picked it- not me. I just happened to be standing in your way on the day you sealed your fate.
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Old January 1, 2013, 01:57 PM   #46
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Well, it's a bad situation no matter how you cut it. I think if I had family with me, then I would have to do whatever was best for them. So, am I or my family being fired upon, am I fixing to be fired upon? It looks to me like I would either need to be shooting, running, or crawling away, or hiding behind something.

I would say that the right training would help in making the best decision, also knowing what you can do with you carry gun, would enter into it. An accurate, and powerful carry gun would make some difference in this case. With a heavy gun, even hits on a bullet proof area might help to stop the perp long enough to get closer or make a better follow up shot, but a tiny mouse gun would not be very effective. A man's really got to know his limitations.

It has been said that most men regret the things they didn't do, more then the things they did do. One thing that I would regret is knowing that I let other people die, because I didn't have the guts to do something in my power, when I had the chance.
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Old January 1, 2013, 02:29 PM   #47
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Do you run to the fire to put it out, run from the fire screaming in terror or stand by while a minority attempt to do something about the fire. Without a standing army or navy a minority of the colonists took on the most powerful army and naval force in the world and beat them by staying the course. Today a majority of the so called reasonable people suggest we should run and hide from danger and surrender our arms to any authority who asks for them. I think not.
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Old January 1, 2013, 05:55 PM   #48
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My single biggest concern with engaging an active shooter is this- how does a responding LEO discern me from the bad guy? From what it sounds like some here plan on going bad guy hunting if they are in a large building/park/campus etc. What is going to run through your average LEOs mind when he sees you armed and on the move? Put yourself in their shoes. Not only do you run the risk of getting shot by first responders there's also a good chance you make headlines as a second shooter. Not that the latter is critical or even matters at the time but that's not how I'd like to be remembered.

I suppose it all comes down to location and timing. If I don't have to go looking for the shooter then by all means I will do something about it. But if I have no visual and just hear gunshots, I'm keeping my weapon holstered and looking to put distance between myself and that noise. If that's not an option I'll improve my defensive position as best as resources allow, draw my weapon, and be ready.
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Old January 1, 2013, 07:04 PM   #49
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I should probably clarify that my comments are from the perspective of an old cop and gun-toter from way back. I expect things of myself that I do not require of anyone else.

I stated earlier that I have no truck with any private citizen who avoids a confrontation with a rampaging active shooter. And yes, if you're running around waving a gun when de po-po show up, it could end badly for you. You need to think about that, and whether you and your gun are up to the fight, before covering distance toward the threat, instead of away from it.
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Old January 1, 2013, 08:43 PM   #50
Glenn Dee
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It seems that some imagine a confrontation with an active shooter to be some long protracted shootout lasting long enough for the police to arrive minutes later. Protracted shootings are very rare. I cant see engaging a shooter for any longer than it would take for me to make two or three shots.

In my experience with armed confrontations the greatest tactical advantage anyone may have is the advantage of surprise. I believe thats enough of an advantage to make all the difference.
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