The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 28, 2012, 05:13 PM   #1
Koda94
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2012
Location: Oregon
Posts: 325
How much training is enough?

How much training is enough?


To break this down, I’m asking because of debates from my circle stemmed from recent tragic events. On one side is the “you’re not trained” to deal with the situation…. Consider the CCW community as a whole not just the enthusiasts, is it practical to expect the CCW community to all be black belts in firearms? How effective is a large community of CCW’ers who are just ‘really good shots’ on average?
__________________
lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2
Koda94 is offline  
Old December 28, 2012, 09:01 PM   #2
MTSCMike
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2011
Location: Middle TN
Posts: 164
You have rights in America. You have a right to be armed and poorly trained or not trained at all. Luckily you will probably never have to use your carry weapon in self defense or (heaven forbid) the attempted defense of others.

Personally, I believe you should become as proficient as possible...within the limits of your available time and budget (within reason of course...don't go broke or quit paying the bills etc). Your life, your wife's life, your kid's lives or even my life could depend on it someday.

For me it is never enough. I continue to train and practice regularly even though I consider myself to be rather proficient. I can always improve.
__________________
IDPA Member A00640
Founding Charter Member - Middle Tennessee Shooter's Club
MTSCMike is offline  
Old December 28, 2012, 09:42 PM   #3
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,288
Competently carrying a gun for self defense involves more than just marksmanship:
  • You will want to know and understand the legal issues -- when the use of lethal force would be legally justified, when it would not be, and how to tell the difference. You will want to understand how to handle the legal aftermath of a violent encounter and how to articulate why, in a particular situation, you decided to take whatever action you did.

  • You will want to know about levels of alertness and mental preparedness to take action. You will want to understand how to assess situations and make difficult decisions quickly under stress. You will want to know about the various stress induced physiological and psychological effects that you might face during and after a violent encounter.

  • You will want to develop good practical proficiency with your gun. That includes practical marksmanship, i. e., being able to deploy your gun and get good hits quickly at various distances. It also includes skills such as moving and shooting, use of cover and concealment, reloading quickly, clearing malfunctions, and moving safely with a loaded gun.

How much training you get and how proficient you become will be up to you, BUT --
  • If we wind up in a violent confrontation, we can't know ahead of time what will happen and how it will happen. And thus we can't know ahead of time what we will need to be able to do to solve our problem.

  • If we find ourselves in a violent confrontation, we will respond with whatever skills we have available at the time. That might be good enough, or it might not be.

  • The more we can do, and the better we can do it, the more likely we'll be to be able to respond appropriately and effectively. The more we can do, and the better we can do it, the luckier we'll be.
__________________
Formerly known as fiddletown
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old December 28, 2012, 11:32 PM   #4
jason_iowa
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 30, 2011
Posts: 614
Something a lot of people bypass but to me is invaluable training.

CONFLICT RESOLUTION!! Become an expert in conflict resolution. Not only will it improve personal relationships it will help you with irate strangers as well. There is a lot of free training around for social workers, correction offices, police officers. Some classes may cost ya $50 for some material. I keep a file folder full of em. I get written "testimonials" about how I did in the class from the instructors. It's not a magic bullet and will not get you out of every dangerous or potentially dangerous situation. If the worst should ever happen and you have to use a weapon you have a pile paper to cover your butt with.
jason_iowa is offline  
Old December 29, 2012, 12:34 AM   #5
Koda94
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2012
Location: Oregon
Posts: 325
All excellent replies thank you. I'm not rich and have not been able to afford any formal training in the past but would consider looking into something if its affordable. Its just that I've never considered my community dangerous per-se' and over the years have only carried occasionally or for mostly recreational use (hiking, fishing, etc.) until the Clackamas incident hit home... like just down the road. I discussed with my peers about

I'm not ignorant on the subject though... at least not totally I've had a CHL for almost 20 years, read the laws for my state and understand AOJ, practice at the range or in the woods, studied some training videos many years ago and became 'good' drawing and firing from concealed. So when I discussed with my circle about recent events I defended the 'more guns = less crime' argument with what Meli did in the mall that day.... which is all fine an dandy until it sinks in the reality of asking myself if I would have done the same.

So I guess until I can afford, if ever, real certified training... I will buy some current books, revisit my training, and study the different scenarios but incorporate the idea of a mass shooting in the plan - that's the new one for me. I of course do not want to shoot anyone, not even a bad guy, I just want to come home at the end of the day.
__________________
lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2
Koda94 is offline  
Old December 29, 2012, 03:12 AM   #6
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 17,956
While it's not the same as formal training, by any means, some of the "practical" pistol sports can help competitors build useful skills.

In addition, there is a staggering amount of useful information available in the form of videos and television programs.

I am not suggesting that any of these things are actual substitutes for formal training, but they can help you understand what sort of things you might need to learn, and where you might be able to learn them. They can even help you develop some very basic building blocks that will help you maximize the value of any training you do receive.

Here's one example of a training video series.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=509632
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old December 29, 2012, 11:48 AM   #7
MTSCMike
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2011
Location: Middle TN
Posts: 164
Find a local IDPA or IPSC/USPSA club and join. Great fun and practice but there are also people in most clubs who are capable instructors. Many will do it for free or cheap. They may not be world famous but most members know someone they could recommend, even if just for the initial basics and fundamentals.
__________________
IDPA Member A00640
Founding Charter Member - Middle Tennessee Shooter's Club
MTSCMike is offline  
Old December 29, 2012, 01:49 PM   #8
Glenn Dee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2009
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,487
Training should be an ongoing event. Real world experiences change things every day. What is the accepted doctrine today may change tomorrow. A real training institution will recognize this and present a dynamic program with current information, and updated technique.

IMO a training session should be attended at least once a year. Training IMO should be well defined, organized, and unhurried. I dont think it should be limited to these sometimes expensive schools. A group of dedicated friends or shooters are just as capable of doing some research and come up with a training program and associated practice regimine just as good as any school.

Much of this opinion is based on the conversations, and posts I've read on this forum.
Glenn Dee is offline  
Old December 29, 2012, 02:54 PM   #9
Koda94
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2012
Location: Oregon
Posts: 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa
Here's one example of a training video series.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=509632
the value of this website forum is immeasurable


Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Dee
A group of dedicated friends or shooters are just as capable of doing some research and come up with a training program and associated practice regimine just as good as any school.
thanks for this assurance, this is what I did years ago to learn to draw from concealed and will be what I will continue doing unless I find an affordable program in my area. You are correct that training should be an on-going event and that is why I am revisiting the subject... its overdue for me. I look forward to building on my old foundation.
__________________
lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2
Koda94 is offline  
Old December 30, 2012, 01:58 AM   #10
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 17,956
Quote:
A group of dedicated friends or shooters are just as capable of doing some research and come up with a training program and associated practice regimine just as good as any school.
It depends heavily on the group of people involved. The statement above is like saying that any group of dedicated persons are just as capable of raising some money and starting a business as successful as any other business.

In theory it's true, but reality tells us that 90% of businesses fail rather than becoming successful.

A successful school will almost certainly do a much better job of training people than a group of dedicated friends/shooters who aren't staking their livelihood on being excellent trainers, who haven't proven their worth to the shooting community and their ability to train by staying in business for an extended period, and who aren't training a number of people on a regular basis.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old December 30, 2012, 01:10 PM   #11
Koda94
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2012
Location: Oregon
Posts: 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa
A successful school will almost certainly do a much better job of training people than a group of dedicated friends/shooters who aren't staking their livelihood on being excellent trainers
no argument and point taken, but not everyone can afford professional training.

Thunder ranch cost $980 for a 3 day class (not including travel expenses)... this is ridiculous for your average person, I'd rather buy another gun.

I have found two professional training centers in my area though that are affordable to me. Hatch Training ($75) and MK Tactical ($150) for a one day class. Both sites offer additional training to continue... I'm considering one of these.

Still, there are so many gun owners that might not afford even those, and there should be free resources available to them. Frank Etten provided a good list, and Glenn Dee makes an excellent point that training should be an ongoing event.... and that always continues beyond the class.
__________________
lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2
Koda94 is offline  
Old December 30, 2012, 01:25 PM   #12
fastbolt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 9, 2002
Location: northern CA for a little while longer
Posts: 1,455
Quote:
How much training is enough?
... is it practical to expect the CCW community to all be black belts in firearms? How effective is a large community of CCW’ers who are just ‘really good shots’ on average?
First of all, ask yourself these questions ...

How much driver training is enough? Being able to drive from Point A to Point B everyday, in normal conditions, never encountering any exigent or emergency situations where your safety and life may depend on your driving skills ... may be enough ... until it's not. Drivers find themselves unprepared for emergencies, or getting in over their head when it comes to their driving skills, all the time. How many expected it to happen to them?

How much self defense training is enough? Self defense training & skills? What kind of attacker (and how many) do you anticipate being a potential threat? Under what conditions?

How much first aid/CPR training is enough? How much training, knowledge & experience will you need in order to save the life of yourself, a family member or even a stranger someday?

How much physical fitness is enough? Notwithstanding any physical disabilities, how well would your present level of physical fitness allow you to react and function under a stressful situation?

Kind of depends on the situation and circumstances, doesn't it?

Once you consider the skillset question, however, there's the question of mindset.

I've known some highly skilled martial arts practitioners over the years who could do fine during training, but were unable to access their training and use it effectively when facing an actual stressful situation. Dojo tigers.

I've seen highly skilled target shooters with competitive backgrounds be thrown off their stride when facing a silhouette target intended to represent a human attacker, or having to shoot alongside other shooters on either side, being pelted by hot brass and the noise of gunfire (which is muted by hearing protection on the range, unlike off the range).

I've seen LE shooters fail to identify Non-Threat/No-Shoot situations in demanding qual courses-of-fire, and end up shooting the wrong "person" (full-size picture targets). Low light/shadow conditions make it even worse, but I've seen it happen under the bright light of the mid-day sun, too ... and from close up. If that can happen under the artificial stress of a qual or training course-of-fire, what might happen when it's "for real"? You can't go back, be re-mediated, and then "get another chance" off the range.

So, how skilled, mentally prepared and experienced do you think that you might have to be someday? At what point will you be satisfied?

How about your friends? You have confidence in them, their level of training, mindset and experience when it may be you or your family facing imminent serious bodily injury or death? How skilled do you want that unknown CCW stranger to be when it's your family nearby if something happens?

Decided to get training, and/or "practice" with your friends? Okay. Now there's the potential consideration of what's proper training, and then how to engage in proper practice ... and how often. Training ... followed by recurrent training ... supported by proper practice, done frequently enough to sufficiently maintain acquired skills.

MINDSET. The Freeze/Flight/Fight impulse is often described as being hardwired deeply into our psyche, and as much as many folks might like to think they'll react "naturally & instinctively" when encountering an unexpected emergency situation, sometimes they just freeze, or do something that's counter-productive to the specific circumstances.

Training is said to be able to help inoculate people against some of the adverse effects of stress. Being able to unconsciously access properly ingrained training can be helpful. Why do athletes and other types of competitors practice? Ditto the professionals? You want to fly with a pilot who hasn't been trained to react and respond to emergency situations, and who hasn't practiced?

Videos, manuals, books & magazine articles may be fine as learning aids in many situations, provided they're a supplement to the material being taught by a skilled trainer (who is also available to observe and correct errors, hopefully so they won't carry over into later post-training practice).

How many accomplished and adequately skilled martial artists do you know who have become that way solely due to videos, books, manuals and magazine articles, without formal training from an instructor?
__________________
Retired LE - firearms instructor & armorer

Last edited by fastbolt; December 30, 2012 at 01:32 PM.
fastbolt is offline  
Old December 30, 2012, 01:29 PM   #13
youngunz4life
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2010
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,877
depends but you can never have enough training

training is very important...as in, sometimes training exercises can be lax...one should train full tilt because when an emergency strikes you will revert to your training instinctively. If you don't take the training this can effect you negatively if you don't freeze altogether
__________________
"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864
youngunz4life is offline  
Old December 30, 2012, 03:18 PM   #14
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,288
Quote:
...Thunder ranch cost $980 for a 3 day class (not including travel expenses)... this is ridiculous for your average person, I'd rather buy another gun...
Well, as Derek Bok, a former dean of Harvard Law School, said, "If you think education is expensive, try ignorance."

Another gun is nice, but it's just an object. On the other hand, I couldn't begin to measure in dollars the value and benefit I've derived from taking classes (in a variety of things). It's not only a matter of the material taught in the class. It's also the value of the experience -- the people I've met, the places I've been, the new challenges I've dealt with, and the new concepts I've been introduced to.

Yes, Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, Front Sight, etc., are expensive. But if there's a way for someone to swing the expense, it's worth it. And IMHO worth more than a new gun. You will carry with you the experience all the rest of your life, and it will, if you allow it, continually enrich your life long after the new gun is just another gun in your safe.
__________________
Formerly known as fiddletown
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old December 30, 2012, 06:43 PM   #15
dawg23
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2001
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 393
The OP can't be too far from Marty Hayes (Firearms Academy of Seattle). Cost will be less than Thunder Ranch, and training will be first class.

p.s. The foregoings isn't a slam at Thunder Ranch. I have trained with Clint (3 day pistol class), and am glad that I did. Just saying that for people on a limited budget, there are less expensive choices that are still good options.

In fact, on TD2 @ Thunder Ranch, Clint walked over during a break to ask me if (and where) I had received former training. There is a lot of overlap in the material, and techniques, taught by the the "upper echelon" trainers.
__________________
.
www.PersonalDefenseTraining.net
dawg23 is offline  
Old December 30, 2012, 08:07 PM   #16
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,288
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawg23
The OP can't be too far from Marty Hayes (Firearms Academy of Seattle). Cost will be less than Thunder Ranch, and training will be first class....
An excellent observation. I'd like to take a trip up there myself. I have great respect for Marty and other instructors associated with FAS.
__________________
Formerly known as fiddletown
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old December 30, 2012, 11:09 PM   #17
Koda94
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2012
Location: Oregon
Posts: 325
my apologies all, it was not my intention to slam Thunder Ranch... I have no doubt their training is excellent and professional. Its just not something I can afford, that was my only point I was trying to illustrate.

Regarding the original question, consider there is a lot of gun owners who can only afford just one if at all. So its good to know what resources are available. When I talk to people about firearms safety and training sometimes come up. If I tell them they need to spend ~$980 to be safe, there not going to consider it an option. IMO of course.
__________________
lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2
Koda94 is offline  
Old December 31, 2012, 08:41 PM   #18
WildBill45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2011
Location: Western PA.
Posts: 1,313
There is no end to training

, especially for PROS in the business and/or on the streets. You cannot take a class, ANY CLASS, and then think you are done for life or a long period ... that is not possible.

You have to train so much, so long, to get it to muscle memory where it is when it is actually useful in a real stress situation, and NO CLASS can do so. The class is just a start to get you on the path, but there is no way to get around long term experience...

Once you get the basics, you can train on your own, over and over, and then over again ... FOR YEARS!!!

If are not a PRO, and not trained all the time, take more classes as time goes by, and then train over and over, and over again...
__________________


.........................................................
"If Ands and Buts were Candy and Nuts, everyday would be like Christmas"
WildBill45 is offline  
Old January 1, 2013, 12:41 AM   #19
shortwave
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2007
Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO
Posts: 5,918
As usual, WildBill is spot on.

If you think there is a cap on training and you feel you've reached that cap, you will never get any better then you are at that time.

Training/practice is a never ending process.
shortwave is offline  
Old January 1, 2013, 01:11 AM   #20
Pastordee
Junior Member
 
Join Date: December 22, 2012
Location: Roosevelt Utah
Posts: 13
One of the issues I dealt with is the false illusion that you may have trained well in the past and have had the skills key word being "have" and not keep up on that training leaves you with a false sense of security and a even a false sense of "insecurity" knowing inside you are NOT prepared.
I been a CCW holder for 19 years and the first five I trained like crazy almost daily.
Then this or that came up maybe shoot once a month, change guns, etc next thing you know you ain't nowhere's as proficient..
I still carried daily and felt "semi safe" but that's not good enough, when you carry , you carry a huge responsibility.

I've had to "repent" to use a term in my biz, and go back to basics.
Luckily I still have friends in LE that help me with my bad habits!
If you are like me, it will start coming back.

Stay on top of it brothers!
Pastordee is offline  
Old January 1, 2013, 02:01 AM   #21
j3ffr0
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 21, 2012
Location: VA
Posts: 153
IMO a person who carries a firearm for self defense should be proficient with it. That person also should be proficient at other things that can help avoid using that firearm if at all possible to including:

-conflict resolution and avoidance (as previously posted)
-legal issues surrounding the use of a firearm (as stated previously)
-physical fitness (running specifically might be important)
-hand to hand combat

I've been reading "In the Gravest Extreme". I really like a lot of what Ayoob says -- The idea of carrying a 20 spot (accounting for inflation) wadded around a matchbook to handover to an aggressive thug is a good one. I'll pay 20 dollars every time to avoid something that could escalate. Now that I carry a gun, I'm much less likely to actually need it than I ever was before. Funny how that happens.

How much training is enough? For me it's as much as I can reasonably get, and I have a ways to go.
j3ffr0 is offline  
Old January 3, 2013, 01:11 PM   #22
fastbolt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 9, 2002
Location: northern CA for a little while longer
Posts: 1,455
Having a solid firearms skillset and training is all well and good.

However, having a solid understanding of the local laws regarding the use of force (including deadly force, displaying a deadly weapon, etc), and being able to make good decisions (especially under stress), is even more critical. You can't call a bullet back, right?

There's also a subtle, but important distinction between just knowing when deadly force may be lawful/justified, and when it's also appropriate for the circumstances.

Dunno anything more than what the article states, but this just occurred in the South Bay Area of northern CA.

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-...ly?source=jBar
__________________
Retired LE - firearms instructor & armorer

Last edited by fastbolt; January 4, 2013 at 02:00 PM.
fastbolt is offline  
Old January 3, 2013, 10:28 PM   #23
Koda94
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2012
Location: Oregon
Posts: 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastbolt
However, having a solid understanding of the local laws regarding the use of force (including deadly force, displaying a deadly weapons, etc), and being able to make good decisions (especially under stress), is even more critical. You can't call a bullet back, right?
+1, this I agree with 100%. That's a quote worth remembering.

this thread is good because it highlights the importance of training however you choose, if its a karate class or a 45 in your belt or both. However you choose, the laws governing the application of such are equally important.
__________________
lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2
Koda94 is offline  
Old January 3, 2013, 10:30 PM   #24
Koda94
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2012
Location: Oregon
Posts: 325
a lot of good replies in this thread, much thanks for contributing to all.
__________________
lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2
Koda94 is offline  
Old January 4, 2013, 04:35 AM   #25
armsmaster270
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2008
Location: California
Posts: 1,924
You never can have enough training even if all you can afford to do is go to the local range.
__________________
http://www.armsmaster.net-a.googlepages.com
http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/f...aster270/Guns/
Retired LE, M.P., Sr. M.P. Investigator F.B.I. Trained Rangemaster/Firearms Instructor & Armorer, Presently Forensic Document Examiner for D.H.S.
armsmaster270 is offline  
Reply

Tags
firearms , handguns , self defense , training

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2013 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13253 seconds with 9 queries