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Old December 23, 2012, 02:55 PM   #26
pelo801
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The only thing worse than a WC at 700-800 fps is a LRN at the same velocity.
and this pretty much answers my question right there. i'm really looking for something my GF, 5'1 and 100 lbs of her will carry and shoot. she likes the simplicity of a revolver, but doesn't like shooting even standard load 38 spcl. she has an LCR, likes the light weight that comes with it but not the recoil that goes along with the reduced weight. so if i have to water down some loads to reduce the recoil, then i want to make up for the (lack of)velocity with a bullet that will still do the best job.
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Old December 23, 2012, 04:41 PM   #27
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She needs to shoot more. I have seen women that size rock and roll with 40 S&W guns.
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Old December 23, 2012, 04:46 PM   #28
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Soft, low velocity bullets, inexpensive buy design and by practice, are all of a sudden some kind of huge street survival secret revealed....are you pulling my leg?
I've seen them "discovered" a number of times over the last 40 years.
When they end up not working, the fad passes until someone "discovers" them all over again a few years later.
Heck, here alone at this forum, they've been "discovered" a couple, maybe three times in the 14 years I've been a member...
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Old December 23, 2012, 08:28 PM   #29
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Quote:
i'm really looking for something my GF, 5'1 and 100 lbs of her will carry and shoot. she likes the simplicity of a revolver, but doesn't like shooting even standard load 38 spcl. she has an LCR, likes the light weight that comes with it but not the recoil that goes along with the reduced weight. so if i have to water down some loads to reduce the recoil, then i want to make up for the (lack of)velocity with a bullet that will still do the best job.
If your primary concern is very light recoil for practice shooting, then you want to lighten the bullet weight to reduce the recoil as much as possible. I use 125 grain cast bullets that are intended for 9mm shooting, albeit sized to .357 for such shooting.
No matter how light of a powder charge (2.7 Bullseye) you put under a 148 grain wadcutter, it will recoil noticeable more than 2.7 grains of Bullseye under a 125 grain cast bullet. I use that load for most of my double action shooting.
If she is going to carry for defense, when she is comfortable shooting the light loads she can carry something that would perform better in that capacity.
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Old December 25, 2012, 02:08 AM   #30
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I think the point is that the wide rather sharp nose of a wadcutter
I did miss the point of sharp nose on a wadcutter. Never heard of it. But I did get a clue about a, sharp shoulder, on a seim-wadcutt circa 1975. Just call me, 'Kluee-Less in Kalifornina'
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Old December 25, 2012, 02:29 AM   #31
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Soft, low velocity bullets, inexpensive buy design and by practice, are all of a sudden some kind of huge street survival secret revealed....are you pulling my leg?

148 grain hollow base semi wadcutters speeding along at 700 feet per second fired from a 6 inch barrel, the kind the PPC crowd shoots hundereds of thousands per year with, is now a big self defense discovery?

Now 800 fps round nose or semi-wadcutter hardcast bullets are a different story.
I would rather use the softest bullets possible if used for real world serious use.
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Old December 25, 2012, 02:55 AM   #32
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In my S&W 36 w/a 1.875" barrel, I load a cast 148gr BNWCFB with 3.5 of Bullseye. I can load these at a low cost and I can afford to practice with what I carry. I do likewise with LSWC.
For this cartridge in a short barreled format I bank on penetration and accuracy.
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Old December 25, 2012, 02:56 AM   #33
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Post #25

Nanuk

Quote:
The only thing worse than a WC at 700-800 fps is a LRN at the same velocity.
Why would that be? LRN is not a LRN is not a LRN.

I'm not defending LRN, but obviously wadcutters in most cases will perform better for SD.

TBS, LRN can still penetrate and distort.
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Old December 25, 2012, 10:44 AM   #34
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For my wife's powderpuff loads, I use the Hornady swaged lead hollowpoint over 2.7 grains of Bullseye for about 650 fps from a 2" revolver. It's light enough for her to shoot easily, and I feel like the combination of the hollowpoint and the sharp shoulder will probably do just fine if she ever needs to use the load. If I need something a little stouter, 4.3 grains of Unique will push that same bullet to 780 fps.
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Old December 25, 2012, 11:04 AM   #35
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Why would that be? LRN is not a LRN is not a LRN.
What?
Quote:
I'm not defending LRN, but obviously wadcutters in most cases will perform better for SD.

TBS, LRN can still penetrate and distort.
The LRN was a dismally performing bullet for self defense. Police were hampered with it for decades for the purpose of expedience and lack of political will by management to change to anything more effective. The round was know as the widowmaker because of all the cops that were killed after shooting a BG six times and then being killed by an angry BG.

Yes it is possible for a LRN to penetrate and distort, and it is possible to win the lottery.
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Old December 25, 2012, 11:59 AM   #36
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I think that a 148gr DEWC hardcast over a stout charge of unique does a good job of emulating HSM bear loads for a .38 special. A 148GR HOLLOWBASE wadcutter over a target load is what I shoot out of my Detective Special, to save a little for the next guy! They are positively gentle.
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Old December 25, 2012, 03:44 PM   #37
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Dade County, April 1986.

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I would rather use the softest bullets possible if used for real world serious use.
The FBI learned this one for the hard way. Those Agents were good men. One way to honor them is to learn from their mistakes; not mimic their mistakes. Remember, the Agents had, Caliber, Speed, and Bullet Placement in the begining no less.

Last edited by warningshot; December 25, 2012 at 03:59 PM.
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Old December 25, 2012, 07:48 PM   #38
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What does this mean?

What is a 'DEWC' ? Blank Blank wadcutter....

What is a, ''BNWCFB'' ? bevel nose wadcutter flat base, maybe ??????

These terms were ranked 3 and 4 with Google, but with no clear definition that I could see. Maybe next time I'll open both eyes.
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Old December 25, 2012, 08:02 PM   #39
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My wife is 5'6" @ 124 pounds. Her favorite pistol to target shoot with is either the 5" Kimber 45 or the '73s in 45 Colt. She didn't start out that way, we just worked up from a .17hmr till we got there.

But on topic my buddy shot some .38 special WCs he backwards loaded out of a 6" python....lord did they make a mess of anything they hit, and only felt like shooting a .22 mag or .25 auto. Seems I remember the great Mr taffin doing a test the same way with backwards loaded HBWCs either in .44 special or .45 Colt.

Shot of the little lady getting some range time with her CCW of choice Glock 26, in mid cycle feeding 110gr Corbon +p. Note the 4 3/4" SAA in .45 colt on the shooting table. She's quite dangerous with both out to and a little past 20yards too


Last edited by BerdanSS; December 25, 2012 at 08:16 PM.
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Old December 25, 2012, 08:07 PM   #40
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What is a 'DEWC' ? Blank Blank wadcutter....

What is a, ''BNWCFB'' ? bevel nose wadcutter flat base, maybe ??????
Double Ended Wadcutter (both ends flat)

Yes on the second
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Old December 25, 2012, 09:44 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by 'Kluee-Less in Kalifornina'
The FBI learned this one for the hard way. Those Agents were good men. One way to honor them is to learn from their mistakes; not mimic their mistakes. Remember, the Agents had, Caliber, Speed, and Bullet Placement in the begining no less.
Please enlighten us on what they learned about the hardness of the lead used in the bullet. I'd love to hear it.
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Old December 25, 2012, 10:30 PM   #42
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What is a, ''BNWCFB'' ?
http://store.midatlanticbullets.com/38wadcutter.aspx
This is a BB or beveled base.
I am having trouble finding the FB(flat base) or aka PB(plain base) in the button nose wc design most are BB.
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Old December 25, 2012, 11:34 PM   #43
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Please enlighten us
I'm not sure whom the, 'us', refers to in your case. But I will give it one try for you.

Early, in the worst shoot-out the FBI ever had, an Agent shot a Creep in the ribcage with a 9mm from a short distance. The bullet, while on the correct target path and with sufficient velocity, deformed and stopped before the bullet traveled thru to the Creep's vitals. Said Creep continued his attack despite soaking-up his new less than lethal gunshot wound to his chest.

The official FBI shooting review concluded that had 9mm been loaded with a bullet capable of decent penetration the Creep most likely would not have had the energy to kill, and injure, multiple Agents, shortly after the intial hit.

Reflecting on the tone from your request for this 25 year old open-source information, I am certain that others, whom may know more about the Dade County Shooting than me, will gladly fill in the details if you so desire.

Last edited by warningshot; December 25, 2012 at 11:57 PM.
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Old December 26, 2012, 12:03 AM   #44
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not sure whom the, 'us', refers to in your case. But I will give it one try for you.

Early, in the worst shoot-out the FBI ever had, an Agent shot a Creep in the ribcage with a 9mm from a short distance. The bullet, while on the correct target path and with sufficient velocity, deformed and stopped before the bullet traveled thru to the Creep's vitals. Said Creep continued his attack despite soaking-up his new less than lethal gunshot wound to his chest.

The official FBI shooting review concluded that had 9mm been loaded with a bullet capable of decent penetration the Creep most likely would not have had the energy to kill, and injure, multiple Agents, shortly after the intial hit.

Reflecting on the tone from your request for this 25 year old open-source information, I am certain that others, whom may know more about the Dade County Shooting than me, will gladly fill in the details if you so desire.
That means absoutely nothing. A single bullet situation proves NOTHING. People have been hit with all kinds of great preforming bullets that did not live up to the expectations. The difference between a solid hardcast and a solid softer bullet is marginal.

As for your last comment, I know all about the shooting. I simply couldnt believe that anyone would translate that to a solid bullet at 18bhn(hardcast) would be any better than one at 8bhn. Hardcast vs softer lead isnt that kind of issue. Better load is the issue.

By your standard everyone carrying a 9mm better not carry HP ammo, there is a chance it would expand and not penetrate deep enough.
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Old December 26, 2012, 12:22 AM   #45
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Keep in mind that most of the better reports on full wadcutter .38 specials involve bullets traveling around 800 fps and not the 600 fps the OP preferred. The late Stephen Camp firmly believed that the light target wadcutters were not the defensive round some believed they were -- http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Feedingthe38Snub.htm. Now, if you do get a full wadcutter traveling at 800 fps (especially harder lead), then you've got a decent defense load. Of course, to accomplish that would probably cause more recoil than the Speer 135 gr. Gold Dots for short barreled guns which is about the best load for a .38 snubby IMO.
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Old December 26, 2012, 12:31 AM   #46
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That means absoutely nothing. A single bullet situation proves NOTHING. People have been hit with all kinds of great preforming bullets that did not live up to the expectations. The difference between a solid hardcast and a solid softer bullet is marginal.
Maybe you should explain that to the victim's families, the Medical professionals, the Firearms Examiners et al. You might be on to a real break-thru in the study of Terminal Ballistics. Later.
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Old December 26, 2012, 12:41 AM   #47
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Hello KyJim

After you deliver 800 fps of 158 grain hardcast lead payload to the intended target, Penetration Disappointment probably will not be a topic of too much concern.
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Old December 26, 2012, 01:54 AM   #48
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The late Stephen Camp
I did not know he passed
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Old December 26, 2012, 02:05 AM   #49
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Maybe you should explain that to the victim's families, the Medical professionals, the Firearms Examiners et al. You might be on to a real break-thru in the study of Terminal Ballistics. Later.
Again hard vs. soft is a matter of technicalities. A "soft" lead bullet is still in fact pretty darned hard. Swaged pure lead SWCs will penetrate just fine.

You also know damned good and well what I meant so using the phrase "explain that to the families" makes you look foolish. Thats about as asinine as the anti-gunners that say that when screaming for an AWB.

Learn more about bullets and you may get somewhere. The hardness of the bullet isnt the issue. Its the load involved. If there isnt enough power to push an expanding bullet through tissue then its not a good load. Any underpowered load with an expanding bullet will either not expand or expand and not penetrate enough.

I gotta go, I dropped some soft lead bullets on the floor and they flattened out like pancakes and got stuck in the carpet, dont want my wife to find them. Anyone know what gets soft flattened out lead of carpet?
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Old December 26, 2012, 05:01 AM   #50
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But on topic my buddy shot some .38 special WCs he backwards loaded out of a 6" python....lord did they make a mess of anything they hit, and only felt like shooting a .22 mag or .25 auto.
If you load a swaged lead WC backwards, the skirt separates giving two projectiles tumbling through the air. Poor accuracy and poor terminal effect is what you will get.
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