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Old December 27, 2012, 01:32 PM   #226
jimbob86
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Tons of people have felony's for check writing and all kinds of very minor offenses...
While I agree that far too many things are felonies, kiting checks is theft/fraud. Chronic offenders just can't be trusted, in that they are either completely irresponsible (in which case they probably should not be armed) or are cool with stealing, in which case they ought not be armed.

Felon = Bad Person.

Bad People Steal.
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Old December 27, 2012, 02:33 PM   #227
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No and here's why.The second amendment gives [acknowledges] my right to own what the military or the police have.If I can afford it I should be able to own it with the exception of full auto unless one is licensed...
You're close. Why the exception for full-auto?
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Old December 27, 2012, 02:37 PM   #228
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While I agree that far too many things are felonies, kiting checks is theft/fraud. Chronic offenders just can't be trusted, in that they are either completely irresponsible (in which case they probably should not be armed) or are cool with stealing, in which case they ought not be armed.

Felon = Bad Person.

Bad People Steal.
Even if it's 20 years ago? My wife used to write checks on the float from time to time when money was tight. She was once threatened with prosecution for writing a bad check at the grocery store. Nowadays she's raising 4 children and the committee chair for my sons' cub scout pack. Hardly the person you'd call "completely irresponsible".

A friend of mine is in his 50's and has a felony on his record when he was in his early 20's for pot. Can't buy a gun. And you think he shouldn't even be able to buy a muzzleloader?

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Old December 27, 2012, 03:27 PM   #229
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I think a Muzzleloader IS a gun. As for the people who avoid recidivism, I'm all for a process to restore their civil rights. ALL of their rights.
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Old December 27, 2012, 03:37 PM   #230
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If we are going to change or add to gun laws, I suggest we begin with taking all guns away from the Presidential detail who are charged with his safety and then take the guns from the security guards at the Presidents school who are charged with protecting the children there....only if and after that is done and tested for a year to see how that works out for us....then we talk about changing or adding more gun laws.
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Old December 27, 2012, 03:39 PM   #231
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I would be in favor of taking away the guns of those secret service agents involved in human trafficking. The rest if they have broken no laws should be allowed to posses just like everyone else.
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Old December 27, 2012, 03:42 PM   #232
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I am pointing out the totally absurd.
Which the left reduce the reality to.
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Old December 27, 2012, 03:55 PM   #233
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So was I.

The fact the president's security detail routinely participated in human trafficking outside the US and the left seems ok with that and they are ok with them still walking around armed seems bizarre to me.

The lack of outrage is pretty stunning in silence.
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Old December 27, 2012, 03:55 PM   #234
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As for the people who avoid recidivism, I'm all for a process to restore their civil rights. ALL of their rights.
This.

If you are "floating checks" then you are taking stuff without having the ability to pay...... which makes the whole Fed.gov (and most of the states' .govs!) a criminal enterprise, IMO.
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Old December 27, 2012, 04:15 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by gaseousclay
I've come across a lot of reasonable ideas to enhance existing gun laws.
  • As long as the definition of "reasonable" only comes from the anti-gun forces, I am not willing to consider further restrictions on firearms.
  • As long as the major anti-gun spokespeople state their ultimate goal is to remove firearms from the public, they negotiate in bad faith and again, I am not willing to consider further restrictions on firearms.
People like Feinstein have poisoned the entire gun discussion. There are certainly some proposals I would not mind considering - IF THEY WERE BROUGHT UP IN GOOD FAITH. Because of her shill demagoguery I am unwilling to give any ground at all.

The best summary I've seen is at The LawDog Files. The entire post is excellent, and his reference to the "Gun Rights cake" (toward the bottom of the post) sums up my attitude very well.
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Old December 27, 2012, 04:20 PM   #236
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Not A Bill of Needs - A Bill of RIGHTS

The problem with this discussion herein is the issue is that we have a Bill of Rights - NOT a Bill of Needs.

Our founders gave us specific enumerated rights – there is no provision in the constitution to allow government to limit your rights to what they think you need.

The fatal flaw of conservatives is the first compromise only sets the door for future erosion of our rights. The once a fundamental right (such as the 2A) is allowed to be limited in any way… the liberals use the tact that the right can be limited for more limits and we agree to allow it to happen.

We now see the code words – “Reasonable Limits” “Common sense controls” they only mean one thing you no longer have a right – it has been taken from you.

Stop negotiating with these liberal terrorists – they have a bigger end game … the next stop on this train is – that an assault weapon ban is not enough to insure everyone’s safety.
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Old December 27, 2012, 04:25 PM   #237
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I will admit I did not read all 10 pages of the thread . Please forgive me if this has been talked about .

Let me start by saying I don't want any new gun regulations and most of the ones we have should be repealed .

That being said how do we as a society and human beings let 20 children be killed and do nothing about it ?

If new gun laws will not stop these types of crimes then what does ? Armed gaurds/police/teachers at every school ? nope No money for that .

What about being able to weed out the mentally ill. What about the right to privacy . ? Are we going to expand the patriot act so the goverment can tap your phone , read your emails , search your house to see what you have been writng in your diary/journal .Who's the one that gets to say who is crazy and who is just a bit eccentric . Sure that may keep a few from getting guns but it will not stop this from happening again .

So I ask this again , how do we as a society and human beings let 20 children be killed and do nothing about it ?
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Old December 27, 2012, 04:42 PM   #238
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for example, is it unreasonable to require new gun owners to take a mandatory safety course and test to prove their capability with a firearm? the way I see it, it's not that different from the laws surrounding car ownership. you have to take a test and demonstrate you know the rules of driving and most importantly, safety.
Unreasonable - driving on state paid roads is a privilege that can be revoked, while traveling is not. My right to bear arms is not a privilege, and 100 years of open carry without permit, registration or other illegal restrictions here in AZ proves it works well.

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Is it unreasonable to regulate private sales, so that gun buyers would have to go through a business with a legally held FFL?
Unreasonable, as it is not your business what they do with lawfully held private property. If they are transferring firearms to criminals to commit criminal acts, well, we DO have laws covering those acts already. If I am not transferring a firearm to a criminal to commit a criminal act, exactly what need do you have to investigate what I am doing? Why should I be automatically assumed to be either incompetent or criminally minded with the mere possession of certain items of private property?

Quote:
Is it unreasonable to require new gun owners to have some sort of safe or means of safely storing their firearms out of reach of others?
Unreasonable - safes are expensive and heavy. That single mother working a diner late night only had $50 to buy a Raven .25ACP, and no where to find the money to buy a safe or put it in her apartment. However, this story, (which did happen), would have had a far worse ending if she had - as while she was being attacked in her own home, her minor child was able to retrieve the gun and use it to end the attack. If it had been in a safe, both mother and child would be dead. I encourage law abiding owners to buy a means of locking up unsused firearms, and have even given away small safes and gunlocks to people who said they needed them, but I would NEVER make it mandatory. Not to mention, the safest place in the world for my sidearm is right there - on my side.

Sensible gun regulations? Sure, we'll use the ones that work - Constitutional Carry nationwide, elimination of GCA '68 and NFA '34, as they have both proven to be failures to stopping or even slowing down crime. Anything that purports to restrict my rights for the criminal actions of others is unreasonable on the face of it.

Quote:
So I ask this again , how do we as a society and human beings let 20 children be killed and do nothing about it ?
Did you petition to ban box cutters after 9/11?
Here's one, over 500 children die every year due to misuse of firearms, and that is a terrible number. However, well over 4000 die of accidental drownings - I see no rush to ban swimming pools or "high capacity" bathtubs!
YES, it is a tragedy, NO, it's not my fault. Yes, the individual needs to be held responsible, but he's safely dead, beyond our reach. Do NOT presume to reach out from the grave and pluck at my rights and private property simply because madmen misuse their property, whether stolen or not. Whatever options you may wish to utilize to "make sure this never happens again", (I'm sure the parents in Bath in 1927 were of the same bent), the option of outlawing the possession of lawful Constitutionally protected personal property is off the table.
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Old December 27, 2012, 04:45 PM   #239
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Edit: response to Metal God.

Sometimes, the best thing to do is nothing.

For instance, if I showed grief by punching people I do not like, I think we can all agree that would not be helpful.

Solutions should be about actually fixing problems, not about making us feel better about things for a fleeting instant. (Hence, no punching, except where necessary.)

Antis are suggesting things that have proven ineffective, either in furtherance of unrelated goals, or because they want a temporary feel-good fix, even if that fix actually harms instead of helping.
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Old December 27, 2012, 04:47 PM   #240
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Metal God

The answer is not to punish the son for the sins of the father.

Why should my rights be reduced because you feel something must be done?

It was tragedy. But - There will always be soft targets.

Address the real problems drug use and mental health. The common tread in all of this.

The guns used were no more at fault that the cars they drove to get to the school or movie theater.
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Old December 27, 2012, 05:45 PM   #241
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The only "reasonable" gun law I support:

"A Well Regulated Militia being necessary to a free state; the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Or, stated in modern American English:

“A well-armed and trained people being necessary to a free state; the right of the people to own and carry arms equal to, or better than, the military shall not be infringed.

All other gun laws (regulations) shall be made null and void.
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Old December 27, 2012, 06:32 PM   #242
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I agree 100% with what you all are saying .

The thing is I did not ask what we should not do . I asked what should we do when 20 children are slaughtered like they were . We as a society and human beings must do someting right ?

We all seem to know what will not help so lets take it to the next level and put out some real ideas that can help .

Instead of a armed gaurd/police at every school . Maybe we put together a program like the air marshalls . 1 undercover marshall for every 5 to 10 schools . They can rotate and the bad guys never know what school has the marshall . That could cut the cost by 1/5 to 1/10 .

Just a thought . Im looking for ways to make things work not finding was that they can't .
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Old December 27, 2012, 06:52 PM   #243
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“A well-armed and trained people being necessary to a free state; the right of the people to own and carry arms equal to, or better than, the military shall not be infringed.
A well-armed people being necessary to a free state; the right of the people to own and carry arms equal to, or better than, the military shall not be infringed. Congress nor the Executive branch will not pass any law or executive order limiting the free exercise of the right, nor shall it be taxed or regulated.

With whatever provision for barring violent felons.
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Old December 27, 2012, 06:54 PM   #244
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Those from Kennisaw Georgia
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Old December 27, 2012, 08:18 PM   #245
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A well-armed people being necessary to a free state; the right of the people to own and carry arms equal to, or better than, the military shall not be infringed. Congress nor the Executive branch will pass any law or executive order limiting the free exercise of the right, nor shall it be taxed or regulated.

With whatever provision for barring violent felons.
For hundreds of years this wasn't necessary. Apparently, we put violent felons in prison or put them to death. No reason for all the honest people to undergo background checks while felons slithered around the system breaking the law. they can't buy guns when they're in prison.
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Old December 27, 2012, 09:17 PM   #246
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I completely agree!
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Old December 27, 2012, 09:55 PM   #247
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I agree with the "why have any gun laws" sentiment. We only started having national gun laws in 1934. As a starting point I would prefer we go back to the status of 1933 for firearms and explosives. Try that out for a change since gun laws seem to encourage more violent crime.
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Old December 28, 2012, 07:28 AM   #248
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Having done a stint on a grand jury I had the opportunity to ask several officers where they thought the guns came from that were used in crimes. Most said that they were taken, borrowed or given by relatives or "business" associates. Many were crappy weapons that had been used as drop or ditch guns in the past. Any gun of value would be sold for money and rarely used for a crime eventually making its way to pawn shops or the occasional buy back program.
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Old December 30, 2012, 08:23 PM   #249
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Boy, are you guys in trouble.

Am I glad I live in a country without the 2a.

I only need a clean rapsheet and a reasonable interest to own and shoot my guns just for sports. And that is not a right, it's a priviledge. With very extensive backgroundchecks which are being done every year. In fact: a background check is being done before someone can join a gunclub.

We have mandatory storage in a gunsafe here.
We have homevisits by police to check the storage every year.
We basically have a waiting period of up to 18 months for a first gun.
We have a 3 year waiting period for assualt weapons.
In that time we are required to have training at least 18 times a year.
We have gunregistration of all modern fire-arms. All antique fire-arms used for sportshooting are registered.
Hence - all gunsales are to be reported to the police.

We had our mallninja. And some weird changes have been made. But I still own all of my guns. We repelled that by explaining who we are and what we as sportshooters do to keep the sport safe.

I'm sitting here and am really saddened that you only see a Right.
But at the same time a lot of you have no regards for the moral responsibility that come with owning a fire-arm. You already freak out by the mere thought of some type of mandatory storage. Don't tell me this or that, you infringe my 2a. Gunregistration? It's the first thing of them grabbing my guns.
Selling through an FFL? Get your hand out of my wallet! Training? A gun is not a car which is a for more dangerous object! Really?

If those things work in my country, they will never work in yours. So, it probably would be a great idea writing your representatives in Senate and Congres pointing out the basic necessity of your 2a. Don't change anything. Those 10,000 deaths each year will go away when we go to bed tomorrow night for it is then you start the count again and begin with 0.

Good night, America, sweet dreams.
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Old December 30, 2012, 08:57 PM   #250
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Gun regulations started within months of the Bill of Rights of 1791 with the Militia Acts of 1792, the second of which required what must be possessed in terms of weaponry.
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