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Old December 20, 2012, 01:34 AM   #1
boa10
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Have guns do shoot

As an non American it seems by what I have read on these pages the mentality is if it moves shot it, be it legal with papers or just not protected, with money, it seems, being the object in most cases. With reference to ratttlesnake round ups its a fact the numbers are not as many as in the "good old days" and the sizes are on the whole are smaller. Likewise with the alligator hunting. I know its not in texas,if hunters keep taking the large animals out it will take years for them to recover in these areas so you see smaller and smaller animals being taken until there is not much left to hunt and the hunters have to move to new hunting grounds. I live in Peru where they have the same outlook, and everything is "protected", but they have an excuse which is, they are very poor or ignorant. Whats yours?
The obsession that a lot of Americans have with guns and to an extent killing animals is beyond me.
An English man in Peru
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Old December 20, 2012, 02:20 AM   #2
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...if it moves shot it, be it legal with papers or just not protected,...
Yes, that's correct. If it's legal game, during the proper season and you have the correct permits, then it is perfectly fine to shoot it as long as you abide by the other imposed hunting regulations that apply. Those regulations include specific rules about the type that may be taken, number that may be taken, and other related aspects. The money spent on permits and collected on sporting goods taxes is used to insure that the populations are properly managed and that animals are not hunted to extinction or even to an unhealthy level.

So, for example, in some areas you might be able to shoot only a single whitetail buck with a particular antler point count, while in other areas, with much higher populations, you may be able to legally harvest more animals, even possibly including does. There are specific restrictions about how the animal must be processed and tagged, etc.

Here is an 80 page document from my state that summarizes the hunting and fishing regulations and restrictions. About 44 pages deal with hunting rules.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publicat..._2012_2013.pdf

As far as shooting unprotected species, I believe you would be surprised to find out how few species are actually unprotected. For example, when it comes to birds, in my state, there are only 3 species that are unprotected. European starlings (an imported species), English sparrows (another imported species) and feral pigeons, a ubiquitous pest species.

There are 11 unprotected animal species in my state, not including feral animals and "exotics" which are non-native species. The unprotected animals are pest species and/or animals which are extremely common, or that are, for one reason or another, not in any danger of extinction from hunting.
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...if hunters keep taking the large animals out it will take years for them to recover in these areas so you see smaller and smaller animals being taken until there is not much left to hunt and the hunters have to move to new hunting grounds.
I don't know what to tell you other than what I've already said. Hunting is carefully regulated by aggressively enforced game laws which prevent the kind of gradual, localized extinction you're concerned about.

The system isn't perfect, but it is working quite well.
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Old December 20, 2012, 02:31 AM   #3
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I will begin with this. No animals have ever gone extinct because of controlled sport hunting. The biologists that determine the hunting seasons and limits set them to preserve the species hunted. The vast majority of hunters in the U.S. are conservation minded and obey all season dates and limits.

Hunting benefits the species as a whole. Taxes on every firearm and ammunition sale are set aside to benefit wildlife. This money pays for the protection of our wildlife and habitat improvements. The taxes and hunting license fees total many millions of dollars a year that go directly to preservation of wildlife.

Hunting restrictions and seasons are set to remove animals from the population that would otherwise starve to death in winter. At the same time the animals being removed makes the surviving animals stronger, because they hauve better food supply during the winter.

Nearly every hunter eats what they kill. Hunting is fun. Killing is not. Killing is not the reason, it is the necessary means to an end.

Until you have pitted yourself against an animal that is keenly aware of its surroundings, has eyes that are better than yours, a nose that can smell you from 500 meters, and ears that can hear a single toothpick size branch break at 100 meters, you just won't understand how thrilling the victory is. Nor will you know the sorrow that you feel that your opponent had to die for you to be successful.

Every specie of big game animal in the U.S. that is hunted has a larger population now than in 1900. Our system as a whole is working towards more animals, not less.
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Old December 20, 2012, 05:56 AM   #4
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In my experience, most hunting trips are unsuccessful. I couldn't help but to notice the stab at rattlesnake hunting in Texas, of course I do have a thread on that.

I think some well managed game preserves can almost guarantee a succesful hunt, but Joe Blow hunting usually nets very little.

Some nuisance animals, such as, coyotes may not ever see lower numbers.

Besides, it's very difficult to eat an animal without first causing its functions to cease. I guess it would work for a bit, but the animal may have some opposition to it.
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Old December 20, 2012, 09:43 AM   #5
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My family, as well as millions of American families spend countless hours and money for the perpetuation of wild animals, " if it moves" we want to see it, and if it's numbers need reduced we want to eat it.
Have a nice day English Fella and THANKS FOR COMING!!!!!!
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Old December 20, 2012, 10:25 AM   #6
Art Eatman
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Legal game can be hunted only when the population of that species has a surplus. It's numbers are increasing and there is a limit to what the habitat can support. We have voluminous regulations concerning methods and allowable numbers of kills.

In the U.S., all game species are increasing in numbers. All.

Alligators: Once threatened because of the demand for their hides for shoes and purses, they were protected for a number of years. Now, in many areas, their numbers have increased such that they are a threat to pets and people. They are hunted within a permit system--and the numbers are still on the increase.

Rattlesnake hunting gets publicity, but "festival" gatherings are sporadic and quite localized. Vast areas of public and private lands never see any such hunting or gathering.
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Old December 20, 2012, 10:34 AM   #7
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We have strict management of deer on our club. If you shoot something that isn't legal by the rules, break out the checkbook, it's going to cost you.

Hogs are a nuisance, the standing rule is kill every one you see. They are prolific breeders and can multiply many times over in a year. They destroy habitat and eat food sources before deer ever get a chance. But, they aren't stupid either, daytime activity goes way down as a season progresses.

Alligators are becoming a nuisance as well. I live in a neighborhood on a golf course and we have them in the ponds of the course. They are getting bolder and more aggressive towards people as their natural shyness wears off due to more encounters with people. I for one would hate to see a child or someone's dog get snatched by a 8-10 or bigger gator. Though they do make desirable shoes, wallets and purses.

Coyotes, foxes and bobcats are major predators on fawns, rabbits, quail and turkey and have to be controlled in order to keep the game species populations up.

What you perceive as indiscriminate killing of some animals is sometimes merely population and predator control in order to facilitate the advancement of the game species we pursue.

Thank you for the concern for American animals, now, go worry about those in your own country.
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Old December 20, 2012, 11:30 AM   #8
huntinaz
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The obsession that a lot of Americans have with guns and to an extent killing animals is beyond me.
The idea that hunting is immoral but buying meat from the store is ok, or that animals can kill to eat but humans cannot is beyond me.

Surely you are a vegetarian, no?
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Old December 20, 2012, 11:32 AM   #9
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OP: Not meaning to be rude, but if you don't approve of guns or hunting why are you on a site that is for gun owners and hunters?
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Old December 20, 2012, 11:36 AM   #10
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Surprised to see staff members responding to such a troll post and not simply deleting it!

There's no educating this guy. Or, more likely, this 13 year old girl who lives in CA.
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Old December 20, 2012, 11:46 AM   #11
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bird_dog
Surprised to see staff members responding to such a troll post and not simply deleting it!

There's no educating this guy. Or, more likely, this 13 year old girl who lives in CA.
Whether or not the OP is a troll requires more information that your inkling.

The OP is in Peru.

Just because you might not like the question, doesn't mean they're a troll.

We'll see if they return in a reasonable time to contribute anything to the discussion. If not, we'll close the thread.
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Old December 20, 2012, 11:50 AM   #12
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So.... you think rattlesnake roundups are a bad thing, because there are fewer rattlesnakes now than there were in the past?

There are fewer rattlesnakes because the habitat for rattlesnakes is not what it was: most of that prairie (and the prairie dogs that populated it) is gone. It is intensively farmed/ranched with corn, soybeans, wheat, alf-alfa, sunflower/other oilseeds, cattle, sheep ..... without which, many people around the world, human beings, with families that love them, would starve to death. Simple as that.

Conditions change, and animals that can not adapt to the changes will cease to exist.

There are people that think we should restore the prairie, giving it back to the rattlesnakes and bison, by forcibly removing the people that feed a good portion of the world's population by farming and ranching that prairie (look up "Buffalo Commons") ..... such people are dangerous nutbags, IMO.
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Old December 20, 2012, 11:53 AM   #13
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With reference to ratttlesnake round ups its a fact the numbers are not as many as in the "good old days" and the sizes are on the whole are smaller. If hunters keep taking the large animals out it will take years for them to recover in these areas so you see smaller and smaller animals being taken until there is not much left to hunt and the hunters have to move to new hunting grounds.
Within the last few years the number of large trophy animals such as deer taken annually is greater that ever. Many of these are taken in areas where they were once hunted close to eradication or where they didn't even inhabit years ago. This is due to modern hunters being selective and harvesting animals that have reached maturity and only taking the amount of animals the population can handle. In Wisconsin the average age of bucks taken during bow and gun seasons both has increased over the last few years. This shows that responsible hunters and a good system of hunting seasons and regulations is achieving their goals. Many fishermen now practice catch and release making the average size of fish caught, along with numbers of fish caught increasing. In the U.S. one of the main reasons we have animals to hunt/fish at all is because of hunters and their support of game regulations and the maintaining of habitat. Their desire to always have the opportunity to hunt/fish for them and their children/grandchildren is very important. This is the real obsession of the majority of hunters here. Very few of us here hunt to survive. Might be a reason game management and the impact on animal size and populations may differ from here and Peru.
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Old December 20, 2012, 11:55 AM   #14
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It's clearly a snake person as 'boa' in the screen name.

Herpetology clubs and forums have launched an organized smear campaign against western diamondback hunters in Texas. This is in response to Animal Planet's highly dramatized series on Texas diamondback hunters. Their claims are largely false information or irrelevant. Their arguments are emotion based with little reasoning involved. When presented with hard facts, they resort to insults and racial slurs....funny because Texas is very diverse in reality.
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Old December 20, 2012, 12:20 PM   #15
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Quote:
Whether or not the OP is a troll requires more information that your inkling.

The OP is in Peru.

Just because you might not like the question, doesn't mean they're a troll.

We'll see if they return in a reasonable time to contribute anything to the discussion. If not, we'll close the thread.
Gotcha -- and, hey, I think you guys do a great job!
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Old December 20, 2012, 04:01 PM   #16
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Sirs/madams, Thankyou for your comments to my post. As a biologist that specilizes in reptiles I must remind you that the main problem of animals becoming a problem to humans is that in most cases its humans that cause the problem. As stated with alligators eating peoples pets. Why? Isn't because there are more and more people going into the animals habitat to live and not excepting to live side by side. Feeding them also causes problems. But having the attitude of "we're here now" be it alligators or rattlesnakes is no excuse of killing them on sight and saying there's plenty of space elsewhere for them isnt always correct. Also saying its a way of controlling their numbers also really doesn't stand up. Just look at alligators almost made extint with the attitude of there's millions of them. It didn't take long for that to change. The TV shows on reptile hunters being brave people are laughable. No its just away to make money at the expensive of animals. There's one thing the need for killing animals for the "pot" another in large scale killing for money and sport/fun.
By the way England banned fox hunting years ago because it is crule and had no effect no real on fox numbers and more important no place in a civilized world.
An Englishman in Peru

P.S If people think that removing 100s or more rattlesnakes a season has no effect on numbers and size. Then who is the troll? Im not attacking responsable hunters a few animals a year, although if you multyply the few animals per hunter a year, then I suggest that may be a cause for concern in the future. It's this bravdo that these TV programes seem to promote that sickens me. Even when there is a quota its the attitude of "we must use the quota" at all costs that you see animals of all sizes being taken it doesn't seem to matter.
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Old December 20, 2012, 04:27 PM   #17
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I think you may misunderstand the amount of rattlesnakes taken each year.

Too the other members; see what I'm talking about lol?
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Old December 20, 2012, 04:28 PM   #18
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It seems like many Englishmen are having problems with many American customs as of late.
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Old December 20, 2012, 04:33 PM   #19
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If people think that removing 100s or more rattlesnakes a season has no effect on numbers and size.
It's not a matter of what people "think". The roundups are localized, periodic events, and there is no evidence to show that they affect numbers and size.
Quote:
I suggest that may be a cause for concern in the future.
If it's not affecting the numbers (i.e. if the take from each roundup is similar in quantity/quality to previous roundups), why would it be any cause for concern at all? Do you have any data at all to support your concern? If you do, then it would be interesting and informative to everyone if you would provide it.
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Just look at alligators almost made extint with the attitude of there's millions of them. It didn't take long for that to change.
Well, it has changed now, and alligator numbers, as mentioned, are on the rise. Again, if the numbers show that hunting alligators is not reducing their numbers and that the management approach currently in use is actually increasing population size, where is the cause for concern?
Quote:
As a biologist that specilizes in reptiles...
It doesn't really matter that you are a herpetologist. If the data does not support your assessment of this situation, then it has no more weight than anyone else's.
Quote:
It's this bravdo that these TV programes seem to promote that sickens me.
How you FEEL is one thing. Whether or not that feeling actually has any bearing on the reality of the situation is another thing entirely.

If you have some data applicable to the species and areas that you are apparently concerned about that supports your view, then post it in your next visit to TFL.

If you do not have any data, then you may consider your opinions and feelings duly noted and this thread will be terminated.
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Old December 20, 2012, 04:50 PM   #20
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Boa10 as holder of a Wildlife Conservation and Management degree I would be happy to debate the health of wildlife in the U.S with either Peru or Europe.

In the last 40 years or so professional wildlife managers and biologists have "taken over" the various state and federal agencies that manage them. The result? Thriving healthy populations of nearly all hunted species. In fact hunted species are usually in better shape than non-hunted ones because they are a economic base in many places while things like songbirds and non game while important aren't.

Don't believe all the tripe you see in print or on the internet about americans and their guns destroying the wildlife of the country. Even some of the species that were essentially extirpated from many areas in the lower 48 are making a come back, Mountain Lions, Wolves to name a couple of the slower recovering species, others like the wild turkey and whitetail deer are at numbers to be considered nuisance species in many areas.

I am a hunter and most of my family hunt, I can't remember a time when we harvested a full quota of anything except maybe small game like squirrels and there certainly is no shortage there. Wildlife agencies, and organizations have spent billions of dollars on wetlands, refuges, and protecting many species during vulnerable times like breeding seasons. The biology and science are there to support the practices and harvest limits set and the results pretty well speak for themselves.

I will happily admit that much of the "problems" with wildlife species especially reptiles comes when we as humans move into their habitat, sometimes they eat our pets or bite us, but so far I don't see those populations vanishing.

I hope you don't feel like I am being rude, its just that the stereotype perpetuated by PETA and other groups agains the american sportsman/hunters is essentially wrong. Sportsman were even the first ones in america to make the pleas for seasons, limits, and limitations, but I am beginning to digress so I will stop.

I will say that I appreciate that you had the inerest & integrity to log on to a site like this one and ask a question, most in your position would simply have taken the onesided argument and accepted it as gospel. For that alone sir you have earned my professional respect.
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Old December 20, 2012, 05:06 PM   #21
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I am not a trained biologist or wildlife expert, but historically it appears to me that the best way to preserve a specific species is to exploit it. The number of cattle killed worldwide must number in the hundreds of millions annually, and there is no shortage of cows, hogs, etc.

Likewise, managing a wildlife population, such as deer, wild turkey, etc. has led to a population boom in the U.S. Tennessee has so many deer that they are now a nuisance species - bag limits are so high that you cannot possibly harvest enough of them in a season to reach your tag limit.

While I agree that humans are encroaching on native species' habitats, it is my opinion that we have just as much of a right to the environment as snakes, alligators, etc., and finding a balance of our competing interests should not result in decreased safety for humans - rattlesnakes, alligators, coyotes, etc. are now thriving species, to the extent that they encroach on human safety.

An interesting issue is that of wild hogs. They are nonnative to North America, introduced by the European settlers. They have no natural predators, and are an extreme nuisance, as well as a danger to humans. I have no problem with the eradication of the feral hog population in North America. They serve no legitimate purpose to the wildlife habitat.

I'm not sure what the issue is with humans killing animals - animals do it every day. The deer taken in its natural habitat has lived a much more dignified and humane life than the feedlot heifer or cooped chicken. Every wild game animal harvested for human consumption is one less animal that participated in the degrading commercial food production system. To me it's a win-win.
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Old December 20, 2012, 05:24 PM   #22
boa10
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Members First of all a thankyou for allowing me to rase my concerns on your forum. When people say many species are making a come back, what do you mean? to numbers before large scale hunting or 5 more then last year? With the possible exception, with a species that I know about, is the alligator which are now almost a million or more. However you try and export a live one, even from a farm, and see how far you get with getting an export permit from the U.S Fish and Game.
There was a 2 volume book about rattlesnakes by Laurence Monroe Klauber written in the early 60s and even then he showed the number of snakes caught for snake fairs etc had dropped from one year to another. Then their were in high 100s in some years. How many are caught and killed now. And why do people think its still necessary to continue this barbaric custom?
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Old December 20, 2012, 05:27 PM   #23
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it is not an obsession with killing anything that moves. it is a tradition, a tradition which originated with our English forefathers. up until fairly recently hunting of pheasants, foxes, squirrels, hairs and other small animals was a favorite past time of wealthy English land owners and when the American land grabs began even the poorest settlers could have as much land as even the wealthiest land barons in England and could enjoy the same pass times that were usually reserved for only the wealthy and powerful. that is why today, it is still considered to be a badge of honor to kill a squirrel or other small animal with a single well placed shot. most of these animals are in such plentiful numbers that there is almost no chance of overhunting and at the slightest sign of such there is usually a bag limit set in motion to help regulate the numbers and help them come back to their old populations.

then there is the tradition of hunting your own food. every american settler had to hunt their own food all the way up and into the 20th century, it wasn't until the invention of the super market where beef, pork and poultry became easier to acquire and more readily available than wild game animals such as elk, deer, pronghorn, bear, pheasant, and turkey. I hunt because I grew up poor and much of our meat came from the wild, I prefer Venison to beef in flavor and texture and I hunt large game with the sole intention of eating them.

likewise I still hone my marksmanship skills by hunting squirrels, mice, starlings, and rabbits.

and I continue to hunt dangerous animals like wolves, cougars, and coyotes because when their numbers are too great they harm the edible animal populations. I do not go on rattlesnake hunts but you can bet your ass if I ever see one near livestock, pets, homes or children it is not going to be alive for long. this is not a mentality with killing anything that moves, it is about enjoying nature to it's fullest and as man is a hunter/gatherer I think it would be like leaving a part of our heritage behind if I didn't hunt and gather mushrooms and berries.

also, this whole post seems to have been geared toward inciting anger with all of us "country bumpkins and hillbillies" that shoot at everything in sight. if that is truly the impression you have developed then perhaps you need to take a closer look at what you've been reading and try to read between the lines.
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Old December 20, 2012, 05:42 PM   #24
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When people say many species are making a come back, what do you mean? to numbers before large scale hunting or 5 more then last year?
It means different things based on the species. When talking about alligators, the numbers are increasing, indicating that there is no problem with overhunting.

When talking about whitetails, some estimates indicate that the population is higher now than it was in the 1600s. For one thing, there are fewer predators, especially large predators to keep the population in check, and human population is such that hunting is very restricted in some areas. The whitetail deer population is so high in some areas that teams have had to be hired to reduce the populations.
Quote:
There was a 2 volume book about rattlesnakes by Laurence Monroe Klauber written in the early 60s and even then he showed the number of snakes caught for snake fairs etc had dropped from one year to another. Then their were in high 100s in some years. How many are caught and killed now.
I think you need some newer data to work from.

The average annual take of rattlers at the largest roundup (Sweetwater, TX) is around 4,000 lbs of animals. The animals are milked for antivenin and then sold for food & skin and other products. Typically the roundup raises around $50,000 a year for local charities.

The take varies from year to year based on conditions, but I can find no data suggesting that there is any downward trend in the take.

The only graph I can find ends in the middle 1990s but shows an upward trend over a 30 year period.

http://www.kingsnake.com/roundup/stats1a.jpg
Quote:
And why do people think its still necessary to continue this barbaric custom?
Since it's actually benefiting the local area charities, there's no evidence to indicate it's causing a downward trend in the snake population and it also provides benefits in terms of antivenin, whether or not it's a "barbaric custom" is sort of moot. There's nothing to show that it poses any sort of long term danger to the species in question and it actually provides benefits in other respects.
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Old December 20, 2012, 05:42 PM   #25
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As an Englishman living in Peru, you are no doubt worldly. I invite you to actually vistit the western U.S. (where these reported snake killings happen) and wander around in our vast open spaces. As a snake and reptile lover I am sure you will find plenty of snakes. Don't believe everything you read, especially when it comes to the wildlife of western U.S.
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