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Old December 18, 2012, 02:42 AM   #51
BarryLee
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When these new gun regs. get past and there is no reduction in the senseless mass killings what happens next???
Well, that’s an easy one to answer they just implement more bans and restrictions. Then when those don’t work they implement more until eventually no civilian owns a gun. It is their ultimate goal, so there is no reason to believe they are not strategizing toward that goal.
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Old December 18, 2012, 08:16 AM   #52
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And while we have chattered about this, how many children have been killed by drunk driving? Or would that be too inconvenient to regulate vehicles?

Forgive me for being so cynical, it's been a long week, and it's only going to get longer.
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Old December 18, 2012, 08:44 AM   #53
vito
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Not only are the familiar anti-gun zealots calling for new gun control laws, i.e., Sen Dick Durbin, Mayor Bloomberg, the Brady Campaign, etc, but now we have supposedly pro-gun politicians saying we need to do so now. Today's Chicago Tribune featured a column by an individual who says he is a West Point graduate, a lifelong hunter, etc., etc, but because of what happened in Conn he believes now is the time for more gun control. Ironically the column describes where he was a victim of violence twice in his life and he expresses gladness that he was not armed at the time. I guess there are some folks who would actually prefer to be a victim than to defend themselves, but I don't feel that way and I am quite sure no one else on this forum feels this way. With conservatives pressing the President to compromise on economic matters I fear that our gun rights will be offered up as a compromise and out of fear that the people are expecting it. Never mind that a new assault weapon ban will not make a bit of difference, I think we can expect to see some fairly draconian gun control laws get passed in the near future. As an Illinois resident who just last week was jubilant about the court decision that appeared to guarantee us a right to carry in six months, I now fear that the Conn shootings will, one way or another, keep us from actually achieving that goal.
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Old December 18, 2012, 09:07 AM   #54
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It's frustrating, every time it seems like the pro 2A community seems to be making headway towards showing the country that it's okay to own firearms, some crazy bastard screws everything up.

WTH is up with this year in particular, so many freaking tragic shootings, Tuscon, Colorado etc. All of these people were mentally ill, they went around the laws, the laws did NOTHING to stop them.

Sadly the ship seems to have pull hard to port and is in great danger of capsizing from what I can tell. It's hard to remain positive at this juncture.
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Old December 18, 2012, 10:06 AM   #55
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All of these people were mentally ill, they went around the laws, the laws did NOTHING to stop them.
Went around them? Not so much. Just plain broke them would be more accurate - it's not just this year.

Columbine - weapons legally purchased, illegally transferred, illegally used - and IIRC didn't they authorities give the girl who bought the rifles a pass on prosecution?

Virginia Tech - purchased through legal means, however did Cho not lie on his 4473 forms? Weapons used illegally.

Aurora - again with a lie on the 4473. Or a fault of the Federal check system (how is the maintenance of this database the fault of legal gun owners by the way?)

Now Newtown - weapons purchased legally by owner. Procured illegally by the user because he killed the owner and stole them after being denied by the very system set up to stop him.

In all of the above federal gun free zones and "no guns" corporate policies pursuant to state laws didn't do a darn thing aside from ensure that the shooters faced no resistance whatsoever.

If I got any of the details incorrect, please help me out here.

But, please, tell me more about how criminals obey laws
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Old December 18, 2012, 10:07 AM   #56
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God preserve us from the life long hunter. I've said before shooting cute Bambis is irrelevant. How could you anyway?

That mantra is to fool you to thinking they are progun.

Anyway, the expanding gun culture in the USA is not about hunting.
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Old December 18, 2012, 01:57 PM   #57
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Suggestion to Mental Health Issues:
  • Parents/Guardians/Relatives can register with FBI
  • Unstable, violent, or mentally ill can be flagged for no firearm purchase
  • Individual can only be removed from list by those listed above willing to accept legal prosecution for their actions.

Takes the responsibility away from health professionals who would lose the trust of those individuals needing counseling the most.
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Old December 18, 2012, 02:30 PM   #58
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At minimum, there will be a huge effort to limit magazines to 10 rounds.
I think this is the most likely. On the positive its something I can live with. My primary use for magazines and wasting copious amounts of ammo now is IDPA, which limits itself to California rules (the above), so I'm ok with that.

I would also be ok with eliminating private sales without a background check, and substantially more thorough background checks with a marked increase in mental state checking.
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Old December 18, 2012, 02:42 PM   #59
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While almost anything is possible I think we'll see the same people roll out the same stupid crap they did in '94. They don't know how to do anything else. They will then stand around and pat themselves on the back and "feel good" about what they "did". Theodore Roosevelt put it best - "What can we appear to be doing about the problem without really doing anything?" Just like the "War on Drugs" and the "War on Poverty" and Prohibition. Those worked out really well. I feel so much better knowing there's no more drugs on the streets and no poor people and no more alcoholism. Don't you?

Last edited by drail; December 18, 2012 at 02:47 PM.
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Old December 18, 2012, 11:18 PM   #60
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I guess our opinions here on TFL of trained school staff ccw'ing in schools is not alone. Just now watching our 11:00pm NBC news and this is getting to be a fairly big, heated debate here in Ohio. The news is actually showing live interviews of many here wanting the same thing.

Surprising the number of people being so vocal of wanting this and, as surprising, the news is actually reporting it.
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Old December 18, 2012, 11:20 PM   #61
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True, shortwave.

I think we may have been watching the same channel.

But there is a reason we are a swing state - minds change often and quickly
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Old December 18, 2012, 11:35 PM   #62
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In Missouri, a bill was introduced to allow concealed carry in schools. As of now, it is allowed only with the school district's permission. I don't know how many districts allow it. My friend who teaches high school was denied permission at his school.

The local sheriff was interviewed on TV, and he is in favor of concealed carry in schools.
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Old December 18, 2012, 11:36 PM   #63
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True, shortwave.

I think we may have been watching the same channel.

But there is a reason we are a swing state - minds change often and quickly
You're so right about minds changing Stressfire.

So far I've been very proud of Gov. Kasich. He has been standing his ground in saying more gun control is not the answer but rather further treatment/study into the root of the problem with more research into the mental aspects of the problem. I would like to hear his personal thoughts on whether school officials should carry.

Last edited by shortwave; December 19, 2012 at 06:12 AM.
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Old December 19, 2012, 01:22 AM   #64
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If there was a federal law passed that allowed teachers/school employees to ccw, I would buy one nice bottle of whiskey in celebration.
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Old December 19, 2012, 01:32 AM   #65
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People like to forget that columbine happened while we were under the assault weapon ban. You can not legislate away all the bad things in the world. Especially when you are going after the wrong thing.

I hate when they say gun violence as there is no such thing. Guns are incapable of violent acts. There is just plain old violence. It has been around forever and its what we need to try to mitigate.

In equality is what causes the most problems. The Top 10% of the population taking 90% of the income while the bottom 90 literally are killing each other for a smaller and smaller piece of the pie. Universal health care we needed it years ago. This is the result of people slipping through the system. It does not matter that he used a gun to do it. All that matters is that he did it and how are we going to stop the next guy from doing it. If he does not have access to a gun and can't steal one he will make a bomb or start a fire. SOLVE THE REAL PROBLEM.
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Old December 19, 2012, 07:58 AM   #66
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In equality is what causes the most problems
By every account I've seen, the Lanza's lived in a home valued at 1.6 million dollars and Ms Lanza's income was well over a quarter of a million dollars per year from her divorce settlement. Income was not the issue here. The problem is that it is next to impossible to institutionalize a mentally deranged person in this country. Thanks to groups like the ACLU, the courts have determined that a mentally ill person has a right to refuse treatment, unless they have demonstrated a propensity to harm themselves or others. Unfortunately the bar is set so high to prove that potential for harm, dangerously mentally ill people are released to the streets on a regular basis. In a typical scenario, a mentally ill person engages in some form of violence; he/she is arrested and placed in the mental health wing of a local hospital for evaluation. After a few weeks of no behavior problems in the hospital, a court hearing is held and the mentally ill person is released back to the custody of their family or to some halfway house where they just walk away. It is sad really, that under the guise of protecting the rights of the mentally ill, we allow them to be untreated victims and perpetrators of crime.

Last edited by Rifleman1952; December 19, 2012 at 08:20 AM.
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Old December 19, 2012, 08:31 AM   #67
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So your solution is to lock up more people? I'm not saying that's a bad idea, because we already do that, almost as many as China, but I just wanted to be clear on what you're suggesting.
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Old December 19, 2012, 08:32 AM   #68
vito
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It would be a lot easier to accept some limited, but sensible limits on firearms if it weren't so apparent that those supporting such measures see them as only a step toward their real desire: the elimination of the private ownership of firearms. Even agreeing to what seems reasonable, lets say a limit on magazines that hold more than 30 rounds, becomes just the new starting point for further regulation by the anti-gun crowd. Unfortunately, despite the apparent huge increase in gun sales after tragic events like the Conn shooting, census data seems to say that the percent of households with guns is actually going down, not up. It seems that there are fewer gun owners, but those owners own more guns. As fewer people own, and have familiarity with guns, it becomes easier to demonize the gun itself. Those without guns often don't seem to care much about further restriction on those who do have guns. It seems a simple proposition to me: will you accept the risk of being a victim, or do you want the ability to defend yourself and your family? Sadly, we are moving toward becoming a nation of people who are willing to be victims, with reliance upon the government for their security, just as the citizens of Great Britain and Australia have done.
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Old December 19, 2012, 08:51 AM   #69
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^^^^^^^ You nailed it.
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Old December 19, 2012, 08:59 AM   #70
Rifleman1952
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So your solution is to lock up more people? I'm not saying that's a bad idea, because we already do that, almost as many as China, but I just wanted to be clear on what you're suggesting.
The dangerously mentally ill should be housed in secure mental health treatment facilities. We should not be able to send people into these facilities on a whim, but if a preponderance of evidence and expert psychiatric testimony strongly suggest a mentally ill person is a danger to himself or others, a judge should be able to so order.
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Old December 19, 2012, 09:06 AM   #71
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One thing that has struck me about the discussion in the Newtown tragedy is his access to his mother's guns. His family has admitted they knew he had mental issues, yet the guns he used in the murders were not, apparently, secured sufficiently to keep them out of his hands. Is there a law in CT about the owner being responsible for crimes committed with weapons he owned that were not secured? If his mother had survived, would she have been prosecuted for not securing her guns?

If those guns had been in a safe, with the door locked, he'd have had no easy access to firearms ... there are so many things that should be done to help prevent a repeat of Newtown; let's enforce laws about securing firearms ... let's see the feds actually prosecute those who use guns in crime on gun charges, and not bargain them away to speed the process ...

sadly, we who enjoy shooting and count on guns for safety and sport are in for a storm on this one, in the form of new laws that would have had no impact on the murders ... better mental health, enforce existing laws ... noting, as others did, that existing laws worked to keep guns out of the killer's hands, yet he still managed to obtain them, apparently through the negligence of one of his victims ...
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Old December 19, 2012, 09:23 AM   #72
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In all honesty, despite the recent political climate and the horrific events that have occurred.

What is the likely hood of something actually successfully being passed? It seems like the Pro-RKBA supporters on both sides have been shaken pretty badly for both good and bad, we've lost and gained support or so it seems. The republican' still hold the house, and the only other course of action that I can think of that Obama can do is to implement another EO just like Clinton did with the original AWB.

It's really hard for me, a young and relatively new shooter to keep a positive outlook on what may come. I fear we're going to see something similar to the 1994 AWB if not worse, or some other form of asanine/onerous legislation. It's pretty clear that the current administration is openly hostile to 2A supporters, and with recent events, the support for said legislation is stronger than it has been in a long while.

Am I worrying for nothing here? I will be donating to one of the pro 2A organizations as much as I can to contribute in the fight to keep our rights, but I feel like we are now going to be fighting a really steep uphill battle. I keep saying that we own the house and that trying to get anything passed will be difficult, but again, support for the gun supporters seem to be on very shakey grounds and it can go in any direction from what I can tell.
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Old December 19, 2012, 09:24 AM   #73
vito
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On the news this AM, it was stated that apparently his mother did NOTHING to secure the guns in the home. From earlier statements it was clear that she felt that the shooting sports would give her son confidence and self discipline. She must have felt confident that her "plan" was working, at least enough to give him easy access to the guns. No amount of laws will stop people from making foolish or irresponsible decisions regarding guns because they will be convinced that the situation is somehow different for them or their family. When a friend was an LEO in a big midwestern city years ago, he was called to a home where the tenant complained to him about her unwanted brother-in-law who was staying there and had left a loaded 12 gauge in the coat closet. The gun was then confiscated but then my friend was told by his watch commander that there was not enough reason to arrest the brother-in-law. Fortunately the police took the gun before one of the children in the household found it. My guess is that this is typical all over the country.
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Old December 19, 2012, 09:43 AM   #74
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This is such a difficult problem. We all know that the vast majority gun owners never do anything illegal with their firearms. 99.8% of firearms sold are never used to harm anyone. The problem is the vast amount of damage that 0.2% of firearms inflicts.
In almost all cases of mass shooting some type of mental illness is involved. Federal, state and local governments have all cut back on spending for mental health sevices. As a nation we seem to be doing a poor job of caring for our mentally ill.
I don't believe that gun control or bans will help, but I think this will be done anyway. The last ban was usless, with some small changes assult type weapons continued to be sold. Even high cap mags could still be found if you looked realy hard.
I just don't have any good ideas to solve this issue. How about you?
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Old December 19, 2012, 10:11 AM   #75
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I think we also fall into the same trap as those blaming guns when we blame some other thing for the "reason" violence occurs. History is the best guide as humans have been violent since the time of recorded history and beyond. People who chose to engage in violent acts will do so for a number of reasons. The tools they use are their choice and most modern cases their actions are based on getting notoriety. The blaming of video games, movies, books, guns etc holds little weight as the overwhelming number of people who engage in these activities or use these items do not go on killing sprees. The individual is the issue in every single case. That individual is the problem. Let's try not to do the same thing to others that is being done to us in order to protect what we like.
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