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Old December 17, 2012, 01:50 PM   #26
Tennessee Gentleman
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Originally Posted by Tom Servo
The real issue is our wretched, Victorian-era perception and approach to mental illness. We dope it, we stigmatize it, and if that fails, we punish it. Is it any wonder some folks snap?

But that's a hard question to ask when you've got ten seconds to make a memorable statement on the evening news, so the politicians settle for placating the public with proposals to ban tools.
Tom you are VERY right. The elephant in the room is the mental health angle but that is hard to articulate. Also, scary civil liberty issues abound. Do we committ and dope anyone who is "weird" what about Vets who might have PTSD? The fixes are complex but ain't they always?
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Old December 17, 2012, 01:55 PM   #27
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I follow the Australian press to a degree, and there's a lot of crowing right now down there, essentially "We told you you should have followed our road map!"

Right now there's a huge fevered pitch for people to do something, anything, that seems as if it would help.

That is absolutely the worst time for things to be done, but the best time for a politician to step in and make it look as if he is doing something.

I think it's going to be a very rought next few months, and possibly even years, for gun owners.
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Old December 17, 2012, 02:01 PM   #28
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There are things that could be done... the question is do we have the will and the capital to do them.
  1. One entry and one exit point on all schools with dedicate metal detectors and a dedicate armed security team.
  2. Allow lawful citizens to carry... One person in the right place and the incidents likely to have a better outcome.
  3. Place sand into the cement block struture of public buildings, brick isnt the best bullet stop, put sand in the airy spaces.
  4. Ensure each class room has two exits that exit to different corridors or rooms.
  5. Ensure future schools are built with what amount to bullet proof fire walls. Once the alarm gets hit each part of the building is in accessible from the other areas without a key police and fire maintain.
  6. Take officers who are on the street and put them in schools during school hours.
  7. Attach law enforcement offices to larger schools, keep county jails elsewhere.
  8. Bulletproof glass doors
  9. An Alarm system in every class room that is specifically for violence incidents with an action plan that quickly identifies location of incident so people move away from the threat.
  10. Better treatments for the mentally ill.
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Old December 17, 2012, 02:12 PM   #29
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There are things that could be done... the question is do we have the will and the capital to do them.
One entry and one exit point on all schools with dedicate metal detectors and a dedicate armed security team.
Allow lawful citizens to carry... One person in the right place and the incidents likely to have a better outcome.
Place sand into the cement block struture of public buildings, brick isnt the best bullet stop, put sand in the airy spaces.
Ensure each class room has two exits that exit to different corridors or rooms.
Ensure future schools are built with what amount to bullet proof fire walls. Once the alarm gets hit each part of the building is in accessible from the other areas without a key police and fire maintain.
Take officers who are on the street and put them in schools during school hours.
Attach law enforcement offices to larger schools, keep county jails elsewhere.
Bulletproof glass doors
An Alarm system in every class room that is specifically for violence incidents.
Better

Yes you can do all that. All it will achieve is the shooter will go somewhere less secure to carry out the shooting. Church -School buses-cinema's- shopping malls-etc. You can't put armed guards every where children gather.

PS What does it say about America if all schools have to be turned into fortress.
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Old December 17, 2012, 02:43 PM   #30
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I'm with you Manta49 and that why I believe in the 2A. Maybe what should have been #1 on my list is using the right we have... It is the best solution even if it has risk.

That right has been denied in so many places and yet we as a nation double down on anti policies that only add to the toll. We live in a society that cant tolerate people with hurt feelings, let alone take action to end the violence with the constitutional tool we have. I don't advocate violence but we must have the ability to stop evil... The police simply cant be everywhere..

To wit: I will make every effort to educate more people on guns and gun safety this year than ever before. (and I'm pretty active already)


I am very concerned about our current atmosphere.
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Old December 17, 2012, 04:17 PM   #31
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The easiest avenue for increased federal intervention, is through the federal taxation of ammunition. Look for the price of ammo to rise considerably. Gun shows are history. Five round magazines will be the new limit. There will be a return of the assault weapon ban and perhaps a ban on all guns that look like they could be military. None of these measures will change a thing and probably make us all less safe. Criminals, will of course, ignore all of the new laws and continue to operate as they always have.
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Old December 17, 2012, 04:35 PM   #32
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Well, you may notice that the NRA has been silent on the issue. Many have taken that as a sign of guilt or fear, which could not be further from the truth.
We kept quiet as well at the beginning, and this is now seen as a tactical error as the case against made all the running, pretty much by default.
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Old December 17, 2012, 05:00 PM   #33
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People's views on the fact that armed civilians may have been able to prevent such a horrific act are valid, and proven when considering the Oregon shopping mall incident.

I also agree that the guns themselves are not the culprits, but rather those using them for heinous acts.

However, following on from Tom Servo's insightful point regarding mental illness, there are some uncomfortable questions that need to be faced and understood if real solutions are to be found...

The one that springs to mind is "Why America?".
With the exception of the Toulouse gunman I can't think of the last time I heard of a mass shooting outside the US. Why do these hideous events seem to happen in the US and not other Western nations?

Surely understanding that would help guide the authorities toward constructive actions.
The alternative seems to be penalising countless responsible gun owners with rushed policies to appease a nation in grief: Treating the symptoms rather than the cause, so to speak.
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Old December 17, 2012, 05:06 PM   #34
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Would it not be simpler to ban crowds and gatherings? Just let them all e-learn, e-comute, and e-gather with Facetime and such, much more easily enforced and workable.
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Old December 17, 2012, 05:11 PM   #35
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Would it not be simpler to ban crowds and gatherings?
Wouldn't that violate another right? Freedom of assembly
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Old December 17, 2012, 05:40 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by CowTowner
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Would it not be simpler to ban crowds and gatherings?

Wouldn't that violate another right? Freedom of assembly
Personally, I see this debate as more of total rights then just firearms itself. If they remove freedom of choice in a constitutional right, which right will be next? Personally, I have been for repealing the various state "assault weapons" laws, and I do not believe a federal law would be worth while to pursue.

Today they are talking about banning "assault weapons" and tomorrow, whats next? A bolt action, or lever action? and then what? and so on.

Last edited by Fishing_Cabin; December 17, 2012 at 05:54 PM.
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Old December 17, 2012, 05:52 PM   #37
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The feeding frenzy by the media over this tragedy will drive knee jerk legislation attempts for sure. Only thing I've read or seen on the news is magazine limits to 10 rounds and 'assault' rifle ban. With all the other turmoil in Washington it will be most interesting to see how this plays out.
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Old December 17, 2012, 06:12 PM   #38
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I believe in letting the other side rave and rant, then when people cool down, a saner and more rational discussion can be held. I point out that laws against murder don't seem to deter a lot of people.
Our "Victorian" system of the deal with the "mentally ill" was abandoned over 40 years ago in favor of "community" based treatment that treats such people with "dignity" and respects their "rights"-and has resulted in people who should be locked up or isolated if you prefer allowed to mix with decent people. I note that the current definition of "Anti-Social Personality Disorder" includes:
"Lack of empathy for others"
Or, as my late mother once put it "People who can't spend more than 10 seconds a day thinking about anybody but themselves".
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Old December 17, 2012, 06:54 PM   #39
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So far today we've lost two Democratic senators -- Warner and Mancin -- who have been supporters of firearms rights in the past.

That's a very, very bad sign.
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Old December 17, 2012, 07:17 PM   #40
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That's a very, very bad sign.
This is just the tip of the iceberg. The crap is about to hit the fan.
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Old December 17, 2012, 07:21 PM   #41
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IMO firearm are not the issue, morals, values and common sense have been eliminated in our public schools. Without a moral code of some type society cannot survive.
Liberals are fast to pass a law to take my rights away however they don't believe the same laws apply to them.
What is sad law makers using such grief to further there liberal agenda and certain this will be used to chew away at the second amendment.
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Old December 17, 2012, 07:21 PM   #42
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Note that they probably will support 'hunting'. Bah.
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Old December 17, 2012, 07:28 PM   #43
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So far today we've lost two Democratic senators -- Warner and Mancin
So, I never saw the full story, but heard a news blurb that Harry Reid was pushing for a ban now. Is that true? My understanding was that the NRA supported him in a very close election and now he jumps ship?
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Old December 17, 2012, 07:33 PM   #44
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So far today we've lost two Democratic senators -- Warner and Mancin -- who have been supporters of firearms rights in the past.
I think it's really too early to worry. We haven't seen a proposed bill yet, and even then, it has to pass through a bipartisan committee.

Let's also wait and see what Warner and Mancin hear from their constituents. They may back down.

Thing is, at this point, it's all sympathetic pandering and soundbites to placate the media. When an actual bill comes up and folks have to stand and be counted, things could very well change.
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Old December 17, 2012, 08:56 PM   #45
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Mental health has become the ugly stepsister to governments looking to cut expenses. Hiring security people at schools, theatres, universaties, post offices etc will cost a lot.

Australia got fed up with the types of mass killings we are discussing here and did something. The Washington Post ran a feature about that subject and the outcome was significant.

Obviously I have guns and shoot for enjoyment. If my grand babies were killed in one of these incidents I would be asking how the right to own a semiautomatic weapon, 30 round clips out the wazoo, and thousands of rounds of ammo supersedes my families right to life. This argument is probably going to get ugly. The arms manufacturers and munitions companies will fight like hell. Funny in a sad way that the rhetoric about political action on gun ownership drives sales of guns through the roof.
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Old December 17, 2012, 09:23 PM   #46
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Australia did not believe that the RKBA was a fundamental right. Thus, their populace did not oppose the bans significanlty. There was some concern about sports (as we prattle about hunting) - thus they saw no impact on liberty.

It's seem to another nations that decide freedom of speech is not important and pass blasphemy laws with draconian punishments.


If you don't value the risks of gun availability as a necessary part of having a particular right then bans are not important to you.
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Old December 17, 2012, 09:46 PM   #47
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At least some folks are transparent about their motives:

25 seconds in - http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_c3#...ights-back.cnn
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Old December 17, 2012, 10:00 PM   #48
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Good points, Glen. Personally I have a dog in the fight because since retirement shooting is a bigger part of my life. Assault type weapons are not my gig but the fight over semiauto weapons will probably start with highly polarized stances by all sides.

Most of us can think of multiple killings where various types of guns were used. Most of the bad ones recently have involved semiautos. For the sake of all gun owners a civilized discourse will be more productive in my opinion. Lock step resistance to any impediment to unfettered availability might end up producing restrictions that none if us want to live with.

I ask again: does the right to own semiauto weapons and banana clips and thousands of rounds supersede peoples right to life? Requiring teachers to pack and participate in tactical training will drive 95% of the best teaches away. Mental health care will cost money. Who pays? We have witnessed an ugly contentious brouhaha over health care. Do most gun folk support increased spending in institutions and treatment?

Open discourse, honesty, and acceptance that we don't all get just what we want will go far in my opinion.
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Old December 17, 2012, 11:43 PM   #49
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This is basically the same post I did for a local gun store's face book page discussion on the topic. It sums up my two cents worth of opinion.

I will admit that I fear the knee jerk reaction that we got after 9/11 with the legislation that was passed there. And I do not believe that changes to Gun laws will change tragedies like this one. The problem is, that too often we try to solve the symptoms of the problem instead of the problem itself. Guns and guns being used are merely a symptom of the fact that we have a woefully inadequate mental health system in this country. I know a lot of people don't agree with Obama care, and I understand your reservations and can even agree with a lot of them. But the thing we truly need to address is making Mental Health services affordable, attainable, and at the same time, as a culture remove the stigma of trying to obtain those services in the first place. If the President and/or Congress truly wants to make a difference, then (IMHO), the correct course of action for him to take, would be to work on making serious changes to the mental health services industry within the frame work they have already setup. Imagine being the parent of a child with issues that lead to that child growing up and committing mass murder. Then imagine, that there are very few resources in this country that you can depend on to help you out. Especially if you have limited income. We did away with tons of mental health institutions in the 70's, as they were deemed unconstitutional. Instead we depend on prisons for a large portion of housing mentally ill people, or we turn them out on the streets as part of the homeless population. We need to be able to identify (not in a criminal way) people that have issues like this at an early age, and get them the help they need to cope, or at least come up with humane ways of dealing with them. I certainly don't know all the answers, but I do know that if we want to end or limit these types of tragedies, that's where the discussions should be. At least that's my two cents worth.
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Old December 18, 2012, 02:26 AM   #50
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Open discourse, honesty, and acceptance that we don't all get just what we want will go far in my opinion.
I agree and have to ask;

When these new gun regs. get past and there is no reduction in the senseless mass killings what happens next???

Who's going to be held accountable then???

What inanimate object will we blame next and outlaw to make ourselves feel better in these tragic times? Maybe we can go back and start blaming DOPE again to soothe our conscience.
After all, the decades of 'the war' on illegal drugs and the laws against having/possessing illegal drugs has worked out real well hasn't it.
Today, we wish 'pot' was the only drug we had to deal with.

Too, when these laws get passed and the purpose for them fails, is there anyone going to stand up and say with open discourse, honesty and acceptance that they were wrong...that mass killings have not decreased...that we've wasted many years(and lives) trying to get stricter gun laws only to find out we've failed miserably and have not treated nor found a solution to the problem???


Do we really believe our gun laws or lack thereof is the problem???

Do we really think that a person that is capable of such horror gives the first damn about whatever gun laws there are???

Do we really believe that if all guns are outlawed and an idiot is bound and determined to mass kill, that we can stop him/her???

Lastly, we are all familiar with Bob Costas getting on the air and giving us his personal anti gun views about the tragic events of the KC Chiefs player that shot his girlfriend and himself. Again, blaming guns.
The very next week, another tragic event(Costas hasn't commented on this one yet) in which an intoxicated pro ball player was driving his car with a Dallas Cowboy player as passenger, wrecked the car killing the Cowboy player.
Since driving while drinking is already illegal, should we outlaw booze...maybe cars???

As with many, I'm sick with these current unspeakable, horrid events. Am a father of a daughter in college, three grandchildren in grammar school and three getting ready to go. If you asked me if I'd rather have a LE officer at the school and trained school teachers being allowed to CCW or ban guns and stricter gun laws, my answer would be an astounding LE in schools/ trained teachers being allowed to ccw.

Stricter gun control will not stop a thing!
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