The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old December 22, 2012, 10:35 AM   #51
Smit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 18, 2012
Posts: 335
I don't believe anyone should be eager to shoot a person regardless of the situation. Only when absolutely necessary such as imminent loss of life, etc...
__________________
"Vegetarian, an old Indian word for bad hunter."
Smit is offline  
Old December 22, 2012, 10:45 AM   #52
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 1,709
Smit,

Do not confuse preparedness for eagerness. Only a fool is eager for combat.

Victorious warriors win first then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war and then seek to win.

Sun Tzu
__________________
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old December 22, 2012, 11:58 AM   #53
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,833
About skill:

The most common self-defense usage is quite close up - it's mugger be gone or some BG close in your house.

I have somewhere a study that shows the unskilled are reasonably accurate close up but when the distance gets longer, beyond 15 feet or so, the unskilled drammatically deteriorate in effectiveness.

Similarly, Karl Rehn did a test of skilled and unskilled with pocket guns and found the former had about a 40% useful hit rate as compared to the skilled.

The mall rampage, school shooting - is a high stress and perhaps longer distance scenario. Thus, it is at the extreme end of the intensity distribution. The modal or average civilan gun fight doesn't speak to the extremes.

This isn't even mentioning the needed automaticity for clearing, reloading, drawing, getting a good sight picture, etc. that might be needed for a stress filled longer distance shot.

We have a natural aversion to killing an innocent even for the greater good. Thus, if you contemplate intervention or SD in a crowded venue - I will opine that you have a moral obligation to obtain reasonable skills. Blaze away in your own home given that penetration is controlled. In public - that's a different moral circumstance.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old December 22, 2012, 12:09 PM   #54
sam colt
Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2012
Location: nc
Posts: 93
I agree with Dwight 55. I carry to protect my self and my family. CCWs are available to most people, I'd suggest they get one, get some training and then to be responsible for themsevles. I'll dial 911, I'll be as good a witness as possible, but I'm not going to risk going to jail for them.
sam colt is offline  
Old December 22, 2012, 12:53 PM   #55
PH/CIB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2007
Location: Iowa
Posts: 281
I have no illusions about carrying a handgun and going up against a man with a rifle or shotgun.

I would feel terrible if advising anyone to take action and then they accidentally wounded or killed an innocent or innocents and/or in stopping or trying to stop the bad guy they themselves were wounded or killed.

I would feel terrible if advising anyone not to take action and they did not act and an innocent or innocents were allowed to be murdered.

Blood on our hands works both ways.
__________________
Life Member,,,Military Order of the Purple Heart, Veterans of Foreign Wars, American Legion, Amvets, Disabled American Veterans, 173rd Airborne Skysoldier Association, National Rifle Association, Member,,,IDPA, USPSA, Iowa Sheriffs and Deputies Association,,Website http://www.handgunholsters.net
PH/CIB is offline  
Old December 22, 2012, 02:04 PM   #56
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 6,983
PH/CIB ~

The disclaimer I put up on my website years ago has long been my guiding principle in what I will or won't advise people to do. It works like this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornered Cat website
Disclaimer: The author of this site assumes that you are an adult human being capable of making your own choices and taking responsibility for same. If you are not an adult, or are not capable of taking responsibility for your own choices, STOP. Do not read anything else on this site. The author has made a reasonable, good-faith effort to assure that the articles herein are accurate and contain good advice, but hereby advises the reader that the author is a normal human being who makes the normal number of human mistakes. Deal with it. If it sounds stupid to you, don't do it. The author accepts absolutely no responsibility whatsoever for anything you might say or do as a result of reading any material on this site. Live your own life.
My credo as an instructor:

Do your homework, real research, before giving anyone else any advice.

Do your homework, real research, before taking anyone else's advice.

Be a grownup...

No blood on my hands, and none on yours either.

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old December 23, 2012, 01:38 PM   #57
PH/CIB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2007
Location: Iowa
Posts: 281
Before I retired as a Veteran’s Rep. I talked to many returning Veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan. After I retired as a concerned Citizen, I talked to many returning Veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan. Many of those Veterans told me they were in contact many days and weeks and months at a time from I.E.D.s and/or incoming fire.

As you stare into the darkness with your eyes and ears with Death possibly only inches away on your night defensive position or listening post or ambush, and you Thank God that you survived the day and you pray to God that you survive the night, you realize with first light you will do it again, and again, and again, and there are only three ways you are going home, by being killed in action, by being severely wounded in action, or when your Tour of Duty is over.

Our Military is all Volunteers and it sometimes seems ironic that we sacrifice our Bravest and our Best for the Freedoms, Liberty and Lifestyle we all enjoy, especially for those who in their own self absorbed self interest would never lift a finger to help anyone else.

It is interesting to see the responses on this forum from folks who have never made contact, let alone served a Tour of Duty with multiple contacts over and over again, many have valid reasons for not taking action, getting their loved ones to safety, not wanting to accidentally wound or kill an innocent bystander, not wanting to be wounded or killed themselves.

If we all get to the point that we only look out for ourselves, we as a People and a Nation are history.
__________________
Life Member,,,Military Order of the Purple Heart, Veterans of Foreign Wars, American Legion, Amvets, Disabled American Veterans, 173rd Airborne Skysoldier Association, National Rifle Association, Member,,,IDPA, USPSA, Iowa Sheriffs and Deputies Association,,Website http://www.handgunholsters.net
PH/CIB is offline  
Old December 23, 2012, 04:14 PM   #58
Brit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 864
PH/CIB,

You are correct, but how do you change a brain washed public, that believe doing nothing will keep them safe? That is what the media, and LE teach. Leave it to the Police? Just be a good witness. What is the saying? "I carry a gun, because a Cop is to heavy"

That message is every where. The NRA wants an armed person in every School.
They are getting laughed at! "Guns are the problem, not more guns?"

We have a disconnected general public, they are living in a dream world.
My time in the Brit Military, was between wars/Police? in Korea, etc.

So I did not serve in a combat zone, lucky I guess, but after the Royal Signals, came marriage, two children, two jobs, 53 hour weeks, week in and week out.

Thirty year's in England, three in Australia, thirty five in Canada, and 9 in the US of A, I became a Citizen in 2011.

Twenty five of those years in Canada, I had my own Weapon Training Business, and tried to pass on the ability to deploy a weapon (Police/Military/Security) to engage a close up threat, 10m to zero.

All from Duty Holsters, all incorporating reloads from the belt.

Five hundred students a year, for twenty of those years.

I taught aggression! Instant fight, or give up! Someone, or more than one, stuck a shotgun in your face, and asked you for the money sacks, you gave them up, someone shot at you, you shot back.

For sixteen of those years, I rented out my range to the El Al and Consulate armed Officers of those establishments. This ended when I left Canada in 2003, so I feel I am not giving away to much, 9 years later!

The Police teach head for cover, the Israelis teach draw, crouch, and shoot.

The difference? Philosophical, one, return fire when I am safe (more or less) the other, an elegant shrug of the shoulders, "You hit better when you are standing still"

Skill at arms? Yes, to some degree, but instant aggression? That is what you need in a fight. Thinking is too slow.

In the situations we see today? You also might need to hit a small target at extended ranges, for that you A/ have to know how to shoot, and B/ know were your EDCW hits!

A for instance on marksmanship, going to your vehicle, late at night, you have just escorted your Bar staff to their cars, you are heading for your own car, with the cash! "BANG/BANG two bullet holes in your fender, a flash of light from the corner of the wall, a window is hit. Well lit parking lot.

Distance, 20m, a white sneaker is protruding from the wall! Six inches in front of that shoe, and up to the shoe? Is your target area. Front sight and press. Has it happened, every thing we can imagine, it has happened, somewhere, sometime.

So Lady's and Gentlemen, yes you need rapid deployment of your EDC Pistol, not to much attention to sights, a lot of time you are looking over the slide.

But for the chance you might need the ability to hit very accurately, you need to know how to do that, as well!
Brit is offline  
Old December 23, 2012, 05:03 PM   #59
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 6,983
Quote:
Originally Posted by PH/CIB
If we all get to the point that we only look out for ourselves, we as a People and a Nation are history.
PH/CIB ~

Thank you for your service.

You're quite right; many of us who teach ordinary people how to defend themselves in an ordinary civilian environment have not served in the military, and do not have a military mindset. That's not a bad thing, because the military mindset does not translate well to civilian life and civilian laws.

Personally, I've never shot anyone and hope to God I never do. That's my mindset. It would be a terrible mindset for a soldier or Marine, but it's an excellent one for an ordinary person. While a warrior might be eager for a fight -- and should be! -- I'm not a warrior. I am a middle-aged woman with a bad back and people who depend on me. I am quite prepared to protect myself, my loved ones, and the people immediately around me. I have the skills to take down a criminal at any realistic handgun distance, and can perform those skills cold and on demand under every type of pressure where I've been able to test them. I'm confident in my skills, but I'm not eager for a fight. If a fight comes to me anyway, I will do whatever it takes to protect myself and the people I love. To the extent that it does not interfere with protecting my loved ones, I will protect the people immediately around me. But I won't rush to the sound of the guns; that's not my job. It's yours, and I honor you for it.

As Goethe observed and I think you would agree, when each person "sweeps in front of his own door," and takes care of his or her own responsibilities, the whole world will be clean.

Reading your post, I think maybe you want to say that each of us should sweep in front of our neighbors' doors as well as our own. That's admirable for those who have been sworn to perform that service. But not all of us have. So we're saying that we'll sweep in front of our own doors. We'll protect ourselves, our loved ones, and the people immediately around us.

If everyone did, the world would be a better place.

pax

Let everyone sweep in front of his own door and the whole world will be clean. – Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old December 23, 2012, 07:28 PM   #60
ShootingNut
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 27, 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,470
PAX,
Thank you, best post I've read in a long time.
SN
ShootingNut is offline  
Old December 23, 2012, 08:47 PM   #61
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,186
This kinda reminds me of the joe citizen who got all jammed up by the VICTIM he was trying to help.

As i remember:

A guy hears a female screaming in the area behind his office building. Its late in the evening and not many people around. He goes out back of his office and sees that a man is kicking a woman on the ground and she is screaming. He starts to go to her aid but the badguy has a gun in his hand. The citizen goes to his car and gets a ccw and begins to shout at the bad guy to stop attacking the woman. The two men have words and the citizen is pointing his firearm at the badguy (from cover)telling him to stop. The bad guy stops and the woman gets up and runs to a nearby home across the alley. As the woman escapes, the citizen backs off and returns to his office to call police. He realizes that as he is on the phone, the police are already in the back of the office at his car. Guess what? The Woman (who escaped) went to her house, called police and reported that a unknown man with a gun was threatening her and her boyfirend in the alley. Yep! How's that for a thank you.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...
FireForged is offline  
Old December 24, 2012, 12:07 PM   #62
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 1,709
Quote:
The Police teach head for cover, the Israelis teach draw, crouch, and shoot.
In the Police or civilian self defense context in America, if you stand and deliver-you likely will get shot. What the Israelis prepare for a bit different than in your face SD, please advise me if I am wrong.
__________________
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old December 27, 2012, 05:36 AM   #63
Brit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 864
No, you are not wrong, but as most confrontations take place at very short distances, right in your face, draw and fire comes to mind.

As each fight, with or without guns, in it's self is a single unique incident, you find something that works, and go with it.

I found instant aggression works. And taught same.

Living in Micky's town, Orlando, not frequenting Clubs after 1AM, or Bars, or drinking to much, the chance of getting in to a fight (especially at 77 YOA) is remote.
Brit is offline  
Old December 27, 2012, 07:38 AM   #64
therealdeal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 627
as previously mentioned in this thread:

there is always the possibility that someone is committing murder in your vacinity(one of many examples being the oregon mall shooting previously mentioned in this thread). One must make his/her best judgement and also have the guts to draw their weapon..

Obviously many factors come into play(too many to list). An example is if you have a chance to escape with your children.

That being said, if you are willing to stand up for life and liberty, believe you have a fighting chance, see someone murdering others, you'll know real quick what you decide to do.
__________________
NRA Distinguished Life Member

"Abraham Lincoln freed all men, but Sam Colt made them all equal." (post Civil War slogan)
therealdeal is offline  
Old December 29, 2012, 11:40 PM   #65
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 1,709
Brit, if it is that close I am probably going hands on vs trying to draw at bad breath distance. Obviously each encounter is different. If I am going to draw I am gonna bust off the X while perforating said bad guy (at least that is my training and mindset).
__________________
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old January 1, 2013, 11:24 PM   #66
Brit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 864
Nanuk,

As a Bouncer for 5 years in Liverpool UK, was in lots of fights, lots. Best way to win, start first.

Person you can reach with your hands, just a single step away, I own him.

But if you had to resort to bullets? You had better have drawn and fired from concealment, the same holster, same pistol, a whole bunch.

Hit with one hand, or both, close up, under 10m, hitting body mass, whilst moving, not impossible.

But you had still have had to ask yourself that question? Could I shoot someone, multiple times? Oh yes, I did not travel this earth for 77 years to have some low life end said life, not without a fight.
Brit is offline  
Old January 2, 2013, 12:24 AM   #67
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,899
Run it's course and now going off on tangents.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:16 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11436 seconds with 7 queries