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Old December 18, 2012, 06:05 PM   #51
doofus47
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Brian Pfleuger
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I suspect that the high likelihood of encountering armed resistance would stop most of these lunatic cowards before they ever acted. Especially if they didn't know who might be armed or when. They might just go somewhere else instead, but that's another issue altogether.
I think that you're on to something, actually. From what I can recall of a number of these cases, putting up resistance tends to deter the attacker. Apparently, being shot at or confronted by an armed citizen or police officer makes these people change course:

Just a few I can think of:
1. columbine: the 2 perps were exiting (planning on escape) when they ran into some early responders; they exchanged a few shots, then retreated to the library and shot themselves.
2. Brazilian school shooting. Police said the gunmen shot himself in the head after he was confronted by officers.
3. Sandy Hook: perp shoots himself as police officers approach.
4. tacoma mall shooting in 2005. An armed citizen confronts the shooter. That doesn't end well for the citizen, but the shooter takes hostages and holes up.

I think that these types are so involved in their own little world that when reality intrudes, they really haven't taken that into account and they have a little bit of a crisis and start thinking of plan b.
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Old December 18, 2012, 06:47 PM   #52
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zxcvbob is right. I know of many teachers at my school (I'm a HS teacher) who have military background, CWPs or are avid hunters. Lots of us have experience with weapons. Just because we love teaching doesn't mean that we aren't serious, deliberate people who are capable of decisive action.

We don't need to be Delta Force. We only need to have an effective means of defending our students at our disposal. If something like this were to happen in my school, I would like to know that someone has a fighting chance of stopping the BG.

As it is, I train my classes that we will lock ourselves in a storage room if we hear a lockdown called. If an active shooter enters our room before we have a chance to hide, we will throw everything that isn't nailed down and rush him en masse. Some of us will probably die but we won't all die and that is the point.
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Old December 18, 2012, 08:07 PM   #53
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Honestly I seriously doubt any sort of "deterrent" will actually work. These are mentally insane people we are dealing with. You really think they're afraid of dying?
If you're going to shoot up a school/theatre/mall, you can't possibly expect to walk out of there alive.
Infact most of these incidents end with the shooter offing himself. They were very much prepared to die and just wanted to take as many with them as possible. So the whole threat of them getting shot just doesn't work. It's like threatening to shoot a suicide bomber.

Armed people on the scene will decrease the length and number of casualties in these incidents, but it won't decrease the number of incidents.
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Old December 18, 2012, 08:35 PM   #54
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My wife picks up 3 children at an elementary school for some working parents. Since Monday morning, there has been a marked police car sitting outside the school both days. I assume this will continue to be "SOP" indefinately.

Words can't describe how much this has saddened me since this despicable creep murdered these poor inocent children and staff.
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Old December 18, 2012, 09:58 PM   #55
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The High School I went to had 4 or 5 permanent SRO's(School Resource Officers) for about 2000 students.

Even an equal number of active shooters would be hard pressed to take down 4 or 5 LEO's.

That being said the middle and elm school I went to were in more affluent areas. They do NOT have a single resource officer on hand. The local PD is about 19 officers total. I imagine you could get a LEO on site to either school within 2-3 mins of a 911 call but still.

Part of the problem is schools have been preparing for a disorganized attack by one or two high school aged children. The Amish School House and Now the Conn. shootings have shown us they need to worry about threats from outside as well.


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My wife picks up 3 children at an elementary school for some working parents. Since Monday morning, there has been a marked police car sitting outside the school both days. I assume this will continue to be "SOP" indefinately.
Thats just a bad idea...after a couple of weeks the cops will become complacent, a lot like the cops I still see sitting in their squad cars outside movie theaters. It would be all too easy to just walk up and eliminate the officer. A roving, unpredictable patrol is a much better option. It might be a feel good option but I imagine most thinking people realize its just window dressing.
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Old December 18, 2012, 09:59 PM   #56
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Honestly I seriously doubt any sort of "deterrent" will actually work. These are mentally insane people we are dealing with. You really think they're afraid of dying?
No, they are not afraid of dying.... they fear messing up their shot at infamy.

The want to play God, and the minute something jacks up their Plan, they check out. That is what I believe happened in Oregon. 2 died there, and the nutball's gun jammed. An armed citizen showed a gun -did not even fire- and the nutter went into a back hallway and ended it. 2 is a durned sight lighter butcher's bill than 26.

Quote:
Armed people on the scene will decrease the length and number of casualties in these incidents, but it won't decrease the number of incidents.
Fewer dead would be nice.

I know I would rather have my kids have a chance ..... rather than have to wait their turn ......
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Old December 18, 2012, 10:47 PM   #57
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In my hometown there has been a police officer in some of the schools since the mid 1970s. The high school has a full time School Resource Officer. The middle schools used to have rotating School Resource Officers. They were plain clothes most of the time but occassionally wore their duty uniforms.
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Old December 19, 2012, 12:03 AM   #58
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I agree with what's been said on other forums, why isnt this DHS's responsibility? They wrote the book on domestic terrorism.
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Old December 19, 2012, 12:20 AM   #59
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Is a School Resource Officer armed? Does he have quick access to a rifle, shotgun, smoke grenades, etc? (seriously, I don't know)
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Old December 19, 2012, 03:05 AM   #60
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Rep. Dennis Richardson is the state representative for Oregon where I live. He has posted a letter to the public proposing volunteer armed campus responders in Oregons Public schools, at the bottom of his letter is a link where one can vote as well as leave a comment.

I voted.

I am sharing this link here, I realize that the percentage of Oregonians in this forum might be a minority, but the voting page is unanimous.... Please overwhelm this surveymonkey with votes in the right direction, one step that works for one state will lead the way for others. It only has two questions and a comment box.

http://www.leg.state.or.us/richardso...ter_121712.htm

My thoughts: I cant say I know the details of what he could propose, but this is a step in the right direction. FWIW, in my opinion I think teachers and parents with CCW permits should be allowed to carry concealed on school grounds if they choose... I do not believe in "gun free" zones. Although I believe that no one is responsible for the individuals security but themselves, I like the idea of an armed campus responder, as a working parent I know I can't be there 24/7 even if I could carry... and I do not have any faith they will change that law anytime soon. I know I would certainly volunteer as a campus responder and even pay for any tactical training the program might require. I do believe, in part, that the solution lies with the citizens and community, not law enforcement or paid armed security.
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Old December 19, 2012, 03:44 AM   #61
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Is a School Resource Officer armed? Does he have quick access to a rifle, shotgun, smoke grenades, etc? (seriously, I don't know)
In my local school system the SRO is a Deputy Sheriff and carries his duty sidearm (Glock 22). I'm not sure how it is now but when I was in high school (10+ years ago) one SRO was assigned to six schools encompassing all students in the county. I seem to remember someone mentioning they'd assigned more in recent years but that may or may not be true or it may have been brought up during a commissioner's budget meeting and that's what I'm remembering.
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Old December 20, 2012, 01:37 PM   #62
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A quick peek at history tells us the Alamo was too big to be defended by so few. A big school with a couple guards might be the same problem. Now we're trying to make forts out of schools. Might as well home school and be near our own equiptment.
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Old December 20, 2012, 04:39 PM   #63
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A quick peek at history tells us the Alamo was too big to be defended by so few. A big school with a couple guards might be the same problem. Now we're trying to make forts out of schools. Might as well home school and be near our own equiptment.
Poor analogy. We aren't trying to make the schools be forts and we aren't defending each against thousands of combatants. School schools are not trying to capture land or a strategic point. SROs trained to stop shooters are not there to hold the school, but as a deterrent and if that fails, to limit harm as best as possible. Schools are not a seige situation.

Besides, homeschooling would just subject those already in a bad environment to more domestic violence, thereby increasing the odds for childhood injury and death.
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Old December 20, 2012, 05:16 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by DNS
Schools are not a seige situation.
:cough: :cough: Beslan.

Lt. Colonel David Grossman has been warning us that lone school shooters are not our major worry. He points out (to those who are listening) that Al Quaeda has declared school children "legitimate" targets for terrorist attacks. Dave Grossman is perhaps our country's top counter-terrorism expert. It is my understanding that his view is that we should be preparing now for when (not "if") they start attacking our schools.
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Old December 21, 2012, 07:17 AM   #65
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My wife is a high school teacher and a former Military Police Officer and though armed teachers might have an effect on active shooters she doesn't think most teachers should be armed. They are educators, a somewhat different breed of person. She's not talking about ex law enforcement or prior military teachers but the career teacher. Secondly there are way more physical encounters with students meaning now you have to deal with weapon retention issues while delaling with these conflicts. Could you imagine the headline if a student disarmed a teacher and then shot someone? She would like some less than lethal incapacitating options to be looked at and has requested it be researched. She doubts our "elected" superintendant will be willing to sign off on anything.
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Old December 21, 2012, 10:12 AM   #66
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Where's the money to secure our schools you ask...??? It's in the billions and billions of dollars we send to secure foreign countries who hate our guts. We secure our banks because we love our money, we secure our malls so we can spend our money, we have Wildlife Agents to secure our bunnies, we have Air Marshals to secure our planes but our children.......we make "gun free zones" so they cannot be defended. It's time we understand what it means to refuse to be a victim.
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Old December 21, 2012, 10:16 AM   #67
Double J
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Schools not a siege situation? Then why worry about anything like blocking the doors and windows? Why have defense if there won't be an offense? Whether it's one nut with four guns or four nuts with one gun each, I consider an attack an attack no matter where it's done. Perhaps general thinking has changed, but when someone knocks down the door and kills a couple dozen people, it' probably not a guest.
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Old December 21, 2012, 10:29 AM   #68
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-...b_2324978.html

I am all for arming teachers. ALL OF THEM! Just like they do in Israel. The colorado shooter went to three other theators first and when he did not see a gun busters sign, he moved on fearing a CHL holder. The fourth theator had the desried "gun free zone" sign and he shot people up.

Once it is firmly known that all teachers and administrators are armed and trained schools are no longer a hunting ground.

The article about talks about "smart gun" technology that would keep a weapon safe if a student got their hands on it.

This is as logical a solution as I've heard yet.

You never see a mass shooting at a police station for a reason.
As soon as you make an area "gun free", even an Army base like Ft Hood, nut jobs see targets.
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Old December 21, 2012, 11:06 AM   #69
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Woo-Hoo, . . . Smilin Jack,...........

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Where's the money to secure our schools you ask...??? It's in the billions and billions of dollars we send to secure foreign countries who hate our guts. We secure our banks because we love our money, we secure our malls so we can spend our money, we have Wildlife Agents to secure our bunnies, we have Air Marshals to secure our planes but our children.......we make "gun free zones" so they cannot be defended. It's time we understand what it means to refuse to be a victim.
You are singing to the choir, . . . but I sure do love that song.

Seriously, . . . you hit the nail on the head, . . . thank you for your thoughtfulness.

May God bless,
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Old December 21, 2012, 11:36 AM   #70
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During the press conference, NRA came out today in support of more law enforcement in schools as well as possibly arming teachers, etc.

Sounds like they will put up a fight in the months to come
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Old December 21, 2012, 11:43 AM   #71
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Even in the '80s we had officers in school.

When stationed at ft hood, late 90s, ownership of weapons were strictly enforced. Even a novelty flea market blowgun had gotten guys into trouble. Gun free zones are asking for trouble.
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Old December 21, 2012, 03:41 PM   #72
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There's a prime example of our mentality when a threat with a gun can run rampant on a military base because carry is not allowed. The world must have gotten a laugh out of that incident.
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Old January 8, 2013, 11:56 AM   #73
Fishing_Cabin
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While having an SRO on campus may have a deterent factor, I dont feel that an unarmed SRO as this district is proposing would be much of a deterent. In fact its a bit disturbing in so much that they want an officer there, but want the officer unarmed. So in the worst possible case, another school shooting, they would still be helpless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by komonews.com
BURIEN, Wash. -- A controversial proposal to disarm school guards and police officers in the Highline School District will soon go before the school board for a decision, but not everyone is supportive of the idea.
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/P...185952902.html

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Old January 8, 2013, 12:18 PM   #74
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budgets, salary, plans....

What many tax payers & people in the private sector do not understand is the huge cost & the budget issues related to stationing sworn LE officers in a school or on the school district property.
They don't know that SROs(school resource officers) earn about $30,000 to 100,000.00 depending on the LE agency & their time in service/time in grade. Most US cops do not make $9.00/hr like a unarmed security guard or work over-time for the PD/sheriffs office.
My county's mayor & the elected county sheriff both stated they don't have the $ to add more LE next year & will barely meet the requirements to deploy deputies in all schools for the end of this school year.
The "good guys with guns" concept is not practical in 2013. The local counties & cities do not have the $ to pay sworn LE personnel.
I'd also state that "volunteers" or "reserve security" wouldn't fly either due to civil liability & insurance issues. I can hear the lawyers screaming now if a school district wanted to go that route.
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Old January 8, 2013, 01:07 PM   #75
Dwight55
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Yeah, . . . money, . . . THAT is the problem.

Money, . . . wealth, . . . prosperity, . . . that is what it is all about.

Money has been found by the banks to keep their deposits secure.

Money has been found by the gov't to keep the airlines secure (?) .

Money has been found to send tanks, planes, and other goods to Pakistan which hates us, Afghanistan who loathes us, Egypt who is just now setting up another Islamofascist regime.

There IS money for the schools, . . . and just maybe it needs to come from shutting down some of the Basketweaving 101 classes, . . . some of the sports programs, . . . and just maybe, . . . dumping about half the fat between the teachers and the District Super.

I don't know about your district, . . . but one local one here has a super making almost a quarter million bucks a year.

The money CAN be found, . . . there really is no alternative, . . . unless we want to continue to buy short caskets.

May God bless,
Dwight
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