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Old December 17, 2012, 09:24 PM   #26
ltc444
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In another post I detailed my experience as a security guard at an Arizona School.

The administration was not interested in security. The principle's main objective was to sweep all problems under the table so he could get a superintendents job. They prevented students and individuals who entered the campus from being charged in assault, one student was hospitalized, and arson cases.

The Police School Resource officer was an individual who had proven herself unsuitable for work on the street. She froze in a number of situations and left her fellow officers in danger.

Security Officers were instructed to Observe and Report. We referred to these instructions as "Run and Hide".

The one good thing was that the locks on classroom doors worked. This was to prevent theft and vandalism, not to protect the students in a lock down.

Several teachers came to me and asked my advice on how to protect their students in case of an incident. My response was to lock the doors, get away from the windows and if an intruder should gain access use the ABC Fire extinguisher.

ABC Fire Extinguishers are an outstanding defensive device. It causes anyone exposed to a blast to cough uncontrollably and the powder will cause blindness.
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Old December 17, 2012, 10:16 PM   #27
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I am so glad I carry in my class.
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Old December 17, 2012, 11:39 PM   #28
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In regards to the OP's first post.


That is exactly the norm for every Jr. High and Highschool in my area.

Local PD has 2-4 year rotations of the special assignment-"School Resource Officer"
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Old December 18, 2012, 12:05 AM   #29
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A lot of school already have a cop stationed on campus; he (or she) needs to be armed. Whether or not there's a real cop on the campus, deputize at least one principal or vice principal. They wear a concealed handgun and have access to a locked-up rifle. Then just encourage any teacher who has a CCW and wants to to carry -- the gun needs to be carried on their person. And provide free training.

This would not cost hardly anything. The answer is not arming all the teachers, just allow the few that want to be armed to do, so and give them some training. Then stop obsessing about it and get back to teaching
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Old December 18, 2012, 08:33 AM   #30
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Security Officers were instructed to Observe and Report. We referred to these instructions as "Run and Hide".
Yeah, that won't do any good. I think the difference between your experience and mine is that our officers operate independently from the schools, but in conjunction with them. They answer to the PD, not to the school district, and they aren't security guards, but full blown and extensively trained police officers.
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Old December 18, 2012, 09:30 AM   #31
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I spent 8 of my 26 years in law enforcement as School Resource Officer in my county at a middle school and a high school. We spent a lot of time training on Active Shooter training with law enforcement and the schools. We also incorporated the teachers on planning days with training scenarios so they were familiar with the response concepts. There was a lot of time, effort and funds spent on trying to be as prepared as possible but we all know what happens to the plan on first contact. Luckily I had no incidents while in this position. The SROs are funded by the Sheriff's Office and the School Board splitting the cost. The unfortunate aspect is the elementary schools do not have full time officers. I'm sure that will change in the near future since there is an event to justify the money now. Oh, and I haven't met many administrators that I think would be competent enough to carry a firearm. They were a different breed of people, not bad but different.
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Old December 18, 2012, 10:10 AM   #32
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Putting uniformed officers at the door, or in a static office would just make them a target....probably the first target.

Quote:
Allowing teachers who can, and want to complete a training program to carry guns at school is a good idea in my oinion.
Surprise is a Force Multiplier, IIRC. Surpising and killing the Security Officer would be the first part of a sicko's plan.....

These nuts generally fold at the fist sign of armed resistance, because they lose control at that point. They want to play God/Play out their sick little plan...... Look what happened in Oregon.

That armed resistance needs to happen ASAP, as it disrupts the monster's plan, dispelling his fantasy that he is "all powerful" and that he can exact whatever horrors he wants to ..... so the frustrated nut usually checks out at that point. Otherwise, he gets to kill and destroy until he feels he's done enough to make himself famous ..... or runs out of ammo.....
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Old December 18, 2012, 10:26 AM   #33
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Tom Gresham's Truth Squad e-mail had it right:

Quote:
Wouldn't it have been wonderful if a police officer with a gun had been able to shoot this murderer before he killed so many children?


Wouldn't it have been wonderful if a trained security officer with a gun had been able to shoot this murderer before he killed so many children?


Wouldn't it have been wonderful if a trained volunteer with a gun had been able to shoot this murderer before he killed so many children?


Wouldn't it have been wonderful if a trained teacher or administrator with a gun had been able to shoot this murderer before he killed so many children?


If you agree with the first, what would prevent you from agreeing with the last?
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Old December 18, 2012, 11:43 AM   #34
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Taxpayers don't want to pay for another Government worker, the current sentiment is to fire all Government workers and let the market figure it out.

Remember the whole budget problem in the US is due to teacher's unions?

Now by re instituting slavery, we could enslave people, make them into Government workers , and it won’t cost anything.

Except we would not be able to trust them with guns…

Well, I guess the kiddies are going to have to learn to duck and cover.
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Old December 18, 2012, 11:50 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by jason41987
my proposal is to use an office inside the school itself to be used as the office of a law enforcement officer to do his office and paperwork remotely... this would allow one law enforcement officer per school to be on grounds at all time, performing his normal duties but being close by in the event he is needed.... then we dont have to arm teachers, or hire security, we can simply let the police be closer
Economically impossible. Logistically impossible. There aren't enough officers and there isn't enough money to hire enough officers.

Logically, a waste of money even if it were possible. Far more children are killed in school related activities, such as riding "non-bus" school vehicles, than are killed by shooters. Multiples more are killed, like 20 times as many. The money would be better spent making sure every kid rode and actual bus, every time.
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Old December 18, 2012, 12:08 PM   #36
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Putting uniformed officers at the door, or in a static office would just make them a target....probably the first target.
No necessarily -- if the bad guy has to shoot his way through a locked door, that gives the officer a little time to respond. You put the officer out right on the front line, yeah he's just a target unless he gets lucky.

You really need to have layers of protection.
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Old December 18, 2012, 12:11 PM   #37
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I am persuaded that allowing trained and willing teachers to carry concealed is the best way to go. They need more training than the average CCW class, however. I do not think the marksmanship requirements are high enough normally.

In addition there needs to be training in when to shoot, and to try to make the teachers think about whether or not they are ready to shoot to save children.

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Old December 18, 2012, 12:51 PM   #38
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The reality here would be if they won't arm a pilot in a locked compartment they won't let a teacher walk around campus with one.
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Old December 18, 2012, 01:03 PM   #39
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"""The entrance doors are all glass. They get locked after the end of school bus arrival but, as shown at Sandy Hook, like locks, glass doors are for honest people. Anyone who wants to get in can just shoot out the glass.

In the course of my review, I also noted that the existing wings had all concrete block walls in the corridors, but the new wings were planned to have glass sidelights adjacent to each classroom door. This was just a few years after Columbine and security was (supposedly) a high priority. In fact, I was briefed that the school had an emergency lock-down procedure. So I asked what the point was of locking the classroom doors if there was a glass panel right next to the doorknob that a shooter could kick or shoot out. The architect's response? "We like them. We think they add a sense of openness to the classrooms.""" Aguila Blanca

I could not agree more, all windows in all schools on ground floor level should be taken out and boarded up or enclosed,,,all classrooms should have a heavy steel lockable door that is firearm resistent from the classroom to the interior of the school and from the classroom to the outside,,,if a shooter tries to shoot open the interior door the teacher leads the class outside through the other door to the outside and then locks the door from the outside, if a shooter tries to shoot open the exterior door from the outside then the teacher leads the class through the interior door to the interior of the school and then locks that door from the inside interior or hallway. All doors should be heavy steel with no glass and as firerarm resistant as possible and lockable from both sides, so the teacher after leading the class through the door could lock it from the other side. There should be no windows in the classroom.

The school should have only one entrance to the public and that as a choke point with a heavy steel firearm resistant door and security cameras and with a police officer or security guard or guards defending that door with ballistic armor and sidearms and access to long arms, shotguns and rifles. Just inside that door would be a metal detector everyone entering would have to walk through.

Will this cost a fortune to retrofit every school in America this way,,,you bet it will.
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Old December 18, 2012, 01:36 PM   #40
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In fact, I was briefed that the school had an emergency lock-down procedure.
More and more, I find myself having deep problems with lock-downs, and the fact that once the door is forced open by whatever means, well, its like the old fish in a barrel quote. Id more like to see some thought to an emergency evacuation to get people out of the small rooms, and spread out outside. Makes for a less target rich enviroment, and gives folks a fighting, or at least running chance to save theirself, instead of all huddled in a corner or closet inside.

It could be taught along the lines of a modified fire drill. Besides if there is a danger such as a fire, we teach staff and students to leave the building in which the danger is, and seek safety outside. Why should we teach the opposite for a shooter, and have them stay inside the building, locked-down or not, and be sitting ducks?
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Old December 18, 2012, 01:44 PM   #41
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all windows in all schools on ground floor level should be taken out and boarded up or enclosed,,,all classrooms should have a heavy steel lockable door that is firearm resistent from the classroom to the interior of the school and from the classroom to the outside
You are not building a school ..... that's a trap.

If some crap like this ever happens at my kid's school, they are to bug out, and go home, using the windows if necessary. "Hide/flee as a class" is only facilitates an orderly slaughter.
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Old December 18, 2012, 02:55 PM   #42
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"""if a shooter tries to shoot open the interior door the teacher leads the class outside through the other door to the outside and then locks the door from the outside, if a shooter tries to shoot open the exterior door from the outside then the teacher leads the class through the interior door to the interior of the school and then locks that door from the inside interior or hallway. All doors should be heavy steel with no glass and as firerarm resistant as possible and lockable from both sides, so the teacher after leading the class through the door could lock it from the other side. There should be no windows in the classroom.""" PH/CIB

"""You are not building a school ..... that's a trap.""" Jimbob86



I have to respectfully disagree, windows are almost always a security risk, one is a shooter can see targets through them and shoot through them, two a shooter can enter through them, three it is generally too hard for young children to open windows and it would be faster for a teacher to open a door to the outside or to the interior of the building and let the kids out than to open multiple windows to let the kids out which also requires jumping to the ground, four in my post I stated no windows in classrooms but a door to the outside to escape from a shooter on the inside and a door to the interior of the building to escape from a shooter trying to get in from the outside.
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Old December 18, 2012, 03:50 PM   #43
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There are roughly 100,000 public grade schools and another 30,000 non-public schools.

What is the cost of an officer for a year to the community? $60,000? $50,000? $75,000. Not their salary, but their full cost with retirement, training, equipment and insurances?

Multiply that number by one hundred thousand for public schools. Total cost per year will be somewhere in the neighborhood of $10,000,000,000 (ten billion dollars). Add a vehicle for those 100,000 officers and the money that you have to come up with goes up again. Roughly $2,000,000,000 (probably on the low side).

Twelve billion dollars to start and ten billion dollars every year.

It simply isn't practicable to do that.

It is practicable to fund training volunteer teachers and administrators, but the cost would still be very large considering you wouldn't just underwrite carry courses for them. It might be useful for people who want such a program to be put in place to read this from a pilot's group. http://www.secure-skies.org/armedpilotcosts.php

On the other hand, we could look at the real risks of these rare incidents and conclude that there's no real driver to do anything, put officers in schools, train volunteer teachers like airline pilots, or ban any firearm or ammunition feeding device.
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Old December 18, 2012, 04:11 PM   #44
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WayneinFL:
Quote:
Quote:
Arming every teacher ain't gonna happen, and should not happen.
Why do you say that? Would they be irresponsible? Or are there too many teachers who would refuse?
Teachers should teach. The most-qualified applicants should be selected for their teaching experience/skill and they should be given pay raises according to how well they teach. Similarly, no one should ask security guards to be janitors just b/c they are at a location after business hours.

If teachers want to carry concealed then it should be allowed to them. No one should be required to be defenseless.

Putting a police officer at each location would be a reasonable, albeit expensive, solution to the problem of security. The issue here is that the site is unprotected.

Let's take an imaginary headline:
"A maniac broke into a school with a _____ and attacked defenseless students."
a. rifle
b. revolver
c. club
d. knife
e. bomb

You could fill-in-the-blank using any of these choices, some would even be possible in a hypothetical location with a complete firearms ban, and the end result is that defenseless kids will be hurt. The elephant in the room imho is that schools are often defenseless. Would a police officer on guard be a target? Maybe. Would response times be greatly diminished if one were? Yes. Would they act as a deterrent? Probably. If the studies that show that crimes decrease where ccw is allowed are relational rather than coincidental, then having a police officer on site would decrease attacks at schools. Are people willing to pay to have safe schools for kids? I would.
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Old December 18, 2012, 04:42 PM   #45
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What is the cost of an officer for a year to the community? $60,000? $50,000? $75,000. Not their salary, but their full cost with retirement, training, equipment and insurances?
If they are contractors you can figure on paying the corporation that supplies the labor about $350,000 to a high of $700,000 dollars a year. This is for someone who makes $50K per year.

Quote:
It is practicable to fund training volunteer teachers and administrators, but the cost would still be very large considering you wouldn't just underwrite carry courses for them. It might be useful for people who want such a program to be put in place to read this from a pilot's group. http://www.secure-skies.org/armedpilotcosts.php
I consider the “arming” of teachers and school administrators a nice pie in the sky idea.

First of all, if these people wanted to be Delta Force, Cops, or Ninja warriors, they would be Delta Force, Cops or Ninja warriors, not school teachers. These people are not terminator machines they are of a different temperament, I have no doubt the killing machine types were screened out in the interview process or schools would have a lot of law suits over teachers hurting students.

So temperamentally, how many of these people are going to be aggressively looking for conflict with an active shooter?

I remember seeing the Columbine Swat team on the tube, all of them equipped with more military equipment than the most fashionistia Mall Ninja, all of them hiding well away from Columbine High School because they were afraid of getting their butts shot off by two high school kids with guns.

If you can’t get a Swat team to confront killers then what do you expect from school teachers?

And what is the incentive for a school teacher to get shot or killed in combat with an active shooter?

Lets say teachers get paid between the 10% and 90% of $38 K to $66 K , the upper number representing ten years of service, and paying off $100K of College loans:

http://money.usnews.com/careers/best...teacher/salary

http://www.teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state/

http://www1.salary.com/Public-School...er-Salary.html

How many people want to get injured or die protecting ungrateful taxpayer’s kids for $38 K a year? Anyone with a rational mind is going to clear out as fast as possible when they hear shooting. Now if they encounter the nut case shooter on the way out, well who knows if they are of the type who would center up a teenage/twenty year old on the post sight and pull the trigger?

Any armed teacher would have many obsticles to jump to become "authorized" to carry. From what I have read on the web, after ten years of Government subsidized “Armed Pilot” programs, maybe 10% of pilots have jumped the hoops to be considered “authorized” to be armed. Who knows if their airline policies allow them to be armed, never mind what TSA say.
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Old December 18, 2012, 04:58 PM   #46
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I remember seeing the Columbine Swat team on the tube, all of them equipped with more military equipment than the most fashionistia Mall Ninja, all of them hiding well away from Columbine High School because they were afraid of getting their butts shot off by two high school kids with guns.

If you can’t get a Swat team to confront killers then what do you expect from school teachers?

And what is the incentive for a school teacher to get shot or killed in combat with an active shooter?
Their incentive is they are going to get shot if they don't. They don't have the luxury of hiding outside until it's over like the police do.
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Old December 18, 2012, 05:08 PM   #47
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The last time years ago, I went into the Social Security Office in Creston, Iowa a small farm town of six or seven thousand or so,,,there was a uniformed armed security guard and the workers were protected from the general public by bullet proof glass...Quess they were worried we cranky old people might assault them with our walkers or our canes.

Every time I go into the VA Hospital I see security there.

The last time I went into the Federal Building in downtown Des Moines to visit the VA and the National Service Officers with the various Veteran's Organizations, I remembered to leave my gun and knife in the car in a public parking lot, and as soon as I walked in the door I was met by two security guards and required to walk through a metal detector which I set off, they had me walk through it again and I set it off again, this time they were not smiling, they had me walk through it again and I set it off so they wanded me and I then remembered the steel shanks in the soles of my leather mountaineering boots.

The last time I talked to a couple of FBI Agents in their office on a Grand Jury Case they had me walk through a metal detector.

Now I know there are more schools than probably all the Social Security Offices and VA Hospitals and Federal Buildings and FBI Offices combined,,,but when I hear Don Rumsfeld say on 9/10/2001 the day before 9/11 that there were 2.3 TRILLION dollars missing in the DoD that could not be found, I think if the Government really wanted to they could find a way to protect our schools. We put a Man on the Moon did'nt we?
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Old December 18, 2012, 05:25 PM   #48
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arming teachers

Being new to firearms generally, I have done a fair amount of reading here and elsewhere. It appears that to be able to return fire effectively in a shooter situation, a teacher would need training to an essentially professional level requiring a lot of additional time and money (neither of which is to be found in our beleaguered school system).

So while I'm not anti-gun, the suggestion of just putting guns in the teachers' hands seems a bit on the glib side.
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Old December 18, 2012, 05:31 PM   #49
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I don't think that's true. While extensive training certainly increases your odds, most defensive situations are successfully resolved by folks with no training whatsoever.

Training would certainly be better but I don't think it comes down to required.

I suspect that the high likelihood of encountering armed resistance would stop most of these lunatic cowards before they ever acted. Especially if they didn't know who might be armed or when. They might just go somewhere else instead, but that's another issue altogether.

The presence of armed resistance may well NOT stop someone who has a specific grudge but someone who's looking for an easy target will likely look elsewhere.
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Old December 18, 2012, 05:34 PM   #50
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So while I'm not anti-gun, the suggestion of just putting guns in the teachers' hands seems a bit on the glib side.
Yes it is. But I'll bet most schools already have teachers who own guns, and some of those have carry permits. They are halfway there already, and the school doesn't have to lay out anything for the hardware. All they need is a little training -- which the police or sheriff could provide -- and some guidelines (guns must be concealed and worn on the body at all times, etc)

Some school already have police officers stationed there; are they armed? Are they the first line of defense or the second? (I'm talking about a somewhat hardened perimeter to deter some bad guys and slow down the rest, to buy the good guys a little time) If the armed guard or officer is stationed outside, he just becomes a target.
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