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Old December 17, 2012, 04:15 AM   #1
jason41987
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a police officer stationed on school grounds

i read some of the petitions released in order to curb these events that have been highly publicized, and i do not think arming every teacher is a good idea at all, but i do think our students and children deserve protection

my proposal is to use an office inside the school itself to be used as the office of a law enforcement officer to do his office and paperwork remotely... this would allow one law enforcement officer per school to be on grounds at all time, performing his normal duties but being close by in the event he is needed.... then we dont have to arm teachers, or hire security, we can simply let the police be closer

feel free to circulate it

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pet...chool/mF93Jz91
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Old December 17, 2012, 04:51 AM   #2
iraiam
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This is already the case in some places. There is an office just like you describe at my nephews former High School, He's graduated now, but I know he saw numerous officers there throughout each school week.

Many or possibly most college campuses have their own police force, even the community colleges here do. It's rather small, but they appear to be adequately armed.

I live near an elementary school and I cannot recall ever seeing a police car in the parking lot.
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Old December 17, 2012, 07:18 AM   #3
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Retired teacher here. Arming every teacher ain't gonna happen, and should not happen. Allowing teachers who can, and want to complete a training program to carry guns at school is a good idea in my oinion.

You don't need every teacher armed. Simply knowing that there are 5-6 armed teachers on the grounds will probably be the deterrent to keep these things from happening.

We had 1 LE officer assigned to our school community before I retired. We had 3 schools, elementary, middle, and high schools all together on 1 large property, but in separate buildings. He was based at the high school, but was present in the others often. When something like this happens his response time would have been much faster than an officer miles away, (very rural area) but would have still taken a few minutes.
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Old December 17, 2012, 07:28 AM   #4
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That would take a lot of police officers, although there is a certain number already assigned to schools where I live. I couldn't tell you how much time they spend on the premises, however. Where I live, there are nearly 200 public schools in the county, which has roughly 1,000 policemen.

There has not been an incident of a school shooting in the county where I live that I'm aware of, although someone shot up a police station and killed at least one policeman a few years ago. Perhaps police stations do not have enough security.
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Old December 17, 2012, 07:48 AM   #5
BoogieMan
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This was the discussion I had with a teacher friend last night along with some fresh deer sausage and homemade wine. We started out by me asking her how she was going to handle the students questions this morning. Ended up the way to handle future threats IMO and hers is to have a meeting of the teachers in each school. Ask for a few volunteers from each school to undergo advanced firearm training and carry while in school. Same idea as air marshals. Continuing ed and qualifying for these individuals to ensure they are ready if called upon. We can never protect every child all the time but this IMO would greatly reduce the amount of damage that anyone could cause, at the same time it would have very little effect on school or township budgets.
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Old December 17, 2012, 08:28 AM   #6
Dwight55
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Quote:
Many or possibly most college campuses have their own police force, even the community colleges here do. It's rather small, but they appear to be adequately armed.
One notable exception is Columbus State Community College, in downtown Columbus, Ohio.

They have (or at least had, last I knew) a uber-left liberal woman for their leader (I forget her title), . . . and she flat out disarmed the whold CSCC force.

Mind you, their campus borders on the "hood", . . . the ghetto, . . . no-mans land, . . . whatever you want to call it, . . . but her reasoning was that there were adequate Columbus police officers only 5 or 10 minutes away if they needed someone with a weapon.

I don't personally have anything at all against all teachers who show any inclination at all, . . . to be armed and trained at the district's expense. No different than any other continuing ed as far as I can see.

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Old December 17, 2012, 08:35 AM   #7
wayneinFL
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Arming every teacher ain't gonna happen, and should not happen.
Why do you say that? Would they be irresponsible? Or are there too many teachers who would refuse?
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Old December 17, 2012, 09:52 AM   #8
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We arm two guys in every single armored truck at every single bank in this country. Does this means that bags full of money are more important than our children? Yes, it does seem kind of extreme but we have seen over and over that the world is not a safe place. I wish it was but I know better. Until we figure out a way to keep psychopaths off of the streets the danger is there. As long as we keep designating "gun free zones" and have nothing in place to prevent these disturbed individuals from walking right in the front door this will keep happening. Passing more laws has never worked and never will. You cannot "prevent" this stuff from happening. You can only deal with it when it does. It makes me sick to think that we disarmed the people responsible for the safety of these children and left them defenseless and all they could do was rush the psycho with empty hands or hide in a closet.

Last edited by drail; December 17, 2012 at 09:58 AM.
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Old December 17, 2012, 09:53 AM   #9
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No offense to either school teachers or policemen but given that my impression of a lot of contributors here think the police themselves are inadequately trained (compared to the contributors here) and that from other sources, teachers are very poor at their jobs, how is it logical that we might expect it to be a good idea for teachers to be armed? And my wife is a grade school teacher. Yet another thing for teachers to be proficient at.
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Old December 17, 2012, 09:57 AM   #10
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Yet another thing for teachers to be proficient at
According to some people, we are supposed to be able to do ANYTHING
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Old December 17, 2012, 12:26 PM   #11
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It is being conveniently overlooked by "the media," but a few years ago the Feral .gov had a program for funding police officers in schools. They stopped doing that after the chosen one was elected, but they didn't make any announcement. Naturally, the states and local governments didn't choose to fund the programs after the "free" money from Washington dried up, so the programs were stopped.

In 2005 I was hired to review the plans for a major high school renovation/alteration/additions project. The school is laid out with a security desk and security office just inside the main entrance. When I did my review, it was my understanding this was for a police officer. Today, there is no police officer in that school, there are two older part-time "security officers" who are on duty only during the morning hours to sign visitors in. Later in the day, there is only one.

The entrance doors are all glass. They get locked after the end of school bus arrival but, as shown at Sandy Hook, like locks, glass doors are for honest people. Anyone who wants to get in can just shoot out the glass.

In the course of my review, I also noted that the existing wings had all concrete block walls in the corridors, but the new wings were planned to have glass sidelights adjacent to each classroom door. This was just a few years after Columbine and security was (supposedly) a high priority. In fact, I was briefed that the school had an emergency lock-down procedure. So I asked what the point was of locking the classroom doors if there was a glass panel right next to the doorknob that a shooter could kick or shoot out. The architect's response? "We like them. We think they add a sense of openness to the classrooms."

I have attended adult ed classes in those rooms since the addition was built. The sidelights don't add anything -- but they do make the classrooms vulnerable.

I also asked about room keys for substitutes. They don't get them. So how is a substitute teacher supposed to lock the door if he/she doesn't have a key? same thing for teachers in specialized subjects, who "float" from one classroom to another. They only have the key to their home room -- IF they have a home room.

The architects hadn't considered that, the school board hadn't thought about that -- and they continued to not think about it after I brought it up, because they didn't have answers and they didn't want to think about it.

If you look at security at any really secure installation (such an American embassy in foreign countries), security is achieved through layering of elements. There is no one thing that can defeat any and all efforts to gain entrance. The security has to be a series of obstacles, each of which must be overcome one-by-one. Even this should not be counted on to stop a determined attacker, but to delay the attack/intrusion long enough for the cavalry to arrive.

We don't secure our schools that way. Glass doors with buzzers and metal detectors operated by unarmed retirees will stop only honest people, not determined evil-doers. That's what we need to get across to our elected representatives, and to the talking heads who find it easier to blame it all on the GUNZ!
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Old December 17, 2012, 12:47 PM   #12
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The 1st order of buisness is to deal with the Gun Hater's!
What that would require is beyond me
All gun owners are looked at by gun hater's in the same light as the evil shooter wherever it takes place.
As reported early on durring the Sandy Hook tragedy, "Look what Michigan just did! they are going to alowing concealed carry in Churches!(negative speaking)
Now how are we supose to deal with this gun hating logic??
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Old December 17, 2012, 01:07 PM   #13
Rifleman1952
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The gun haters have long since demonstrated they are immune to facts, logic or reason. Their hatred of guns and gun owners borders on religious fanaticism.

As stated by others, many schools, mostly in problem urban areas, have what is referred to around here as a "school resource officer." These police officers make rounds around the school and place themselves in areas where conflicts often arise. It appears that now school systems in more rural areas will consider placing police officers or deputy sheriffs in their schools as well, as long as they can afford it.

For schools which cannot afford an officer, I suggest that the principal, assistant principal, or any other school employee who is willing, carry a concealed handgun. If there are a handful of employees who are willing, why not?
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Old December 17, 2012, 01:13 PM   #14
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I think it should be approached similarly to the air lines. When a terrorist takes a plane you don't arm every passenger to the teeth. You take a few people trained to the teeth, arm them, and make them appear to be an average passenger. A few well trained, armed individuals would at the very least make someone think twice about doing anything shady.
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Old December 17, 2012, 01:16 PM   #15
rellik74
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Fox news com had someting about a texas school district doing just that. Gun Free zones= crime free zones. When they dont alow CCW's to carry in schools why would they let the teachers, anti gun persons use no common sense.
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Old December 17, 2012, 01:22 PM   #16
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In our county, all of the high schools and middle schools have an on-sight School Resource Officer. He/She is a regular sheriff's office deputy specifically trained to handle kid problems and they stay on-site most of the day and at many after-hours functions. They do a great job helping to identify and prevent problems (mainly between kids) before they start.
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Old December 17, 2012, 01:27 PM   #17
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First I dont have a concrete answer that would prevent another tragedy...But I will say that the schools, parents, law enforcement, the court system, and the mental health systems need to work together to prevent this.

Just personal opinion from experience...Its all but impossible to get an extended commitment on a person, even worse on a juvi because even with documented mental issues and being a danger, there is not enough room, and the agencies keep "passing the buck."

The schools that dont have law enforcement on staff at the school, need to be more open to officers stopping by, driving through the parking lot, or walking the school. My experience with schools is they are generally not pro law enforcement, and basically only want you when they call, and then complain cause your always late.

Parents who have problem children need to understand its not always a parenting issue, sometimes its a mental issue, and they should work together with authorities to get a good solution in place. Schools also should be given more authority to help with this as well. Mental health can be a life safety issue, it should not always just be a privacy issue to be with held by HIPAA, and so others are put at risk.

Basically, what I am saying is we need a systematic approach to help improve safety. Focusing on just one part of the puzzle will result in "passing the buck" on down the line...So do we fix it, or do we just "pass the buck?"

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Old December 17, 2012, 01:44 PM   #18
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I will preface this with saying that I was the typical redneck punk teenager
who knew he was invicible and thought, according to the gospel of Ron Paul, all cops were evil totalitarians.

But that being said, the Deputy assigned to my high school was a joke.

Old, overweight, not invovled in campus activities, most of his day was spent sitting on his golf cart in the parking lot reading the paper and napping. A doubt he could have cleared leather over his spare tire.

The deputy assigned to my mom's school is a nice enough lady, but she leaves her duty belt secured in her cruiser so as not to "scare the kids."

Physical security at my old schools, and heck, my University is a joke.
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Old December 17, 2012, 01:55 PM   #19
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Until we solve the mental health care problem we should give the job to the people who care the most, the parents. Have you ever seen a mother react to any threat to her child? She will not be restrained by the perp's "rights". She will put them down. Some firearms training would be required. But if some psycho with a gun walks into a school he is not going to shoot 20 or 30 people before he is shot.
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Old December 17, 2012, 02:12 PM   #20
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The schools that dont have law enforcement on staff at the school, need to be more open to officers stopping by, driving through the parking lot, or walking the school. My experience with schools is they are generally not pro law enforcement, and basically only want you when they call, and then complain cause your always late.
BINGO! Some teachers (obviously not all) feel they are all the authority needed in a school building. Well surprise, it's 2012, not 1962, meaning some students are more violent towards teachers. Very few teachers press criminal charges. I'm not saying this to get a rise from the membership on this forum. I was assigned (in plain clothes) to a few inner city middle and high schools, and not all teachers are receptive of a police presents.
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Old December 17, 2012, 02:30 PM   #21
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In the course of my review, I also noted that the existing wings had all concrete block walls in the corridors, but the new wings were planned to have glass sidelights adjacent to each classroom door. This was just a few years after Columbine and security was (supposedly) a high priority. In fact, I was briefed that the school had an emergency lock-down procedure. So I asked what the point was of locking the classroom doors if there was a glass panel right next to the doorknob that a shooter could kick or shoot out. The architect's response? "We like them. We think they add a sense of openness to the classrooms."
The other problem with the whole lock down procedure is by the time the report comes in that there's an active shooter, he can already be in a classroom. We went through a lockdown plan at a local college I used to attend. After a shooting is reported, the office announces it to the professors and they lock the door and turn off the lights. Great. My question to the professor was, "What if he's in here? Who gets up to lock the door?".

I don't disagree with it, but it still leaves the potential to cost 30 or 40 lives.
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Old December 17, 2012, 02:58 PM   #22
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Armed security, armed teachers, unarmed students? One wacked out adult in a classroom with 6 year olds. What could go wrong there? Seems the answer won't come easy.
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Old December 17, 2012, 03:14 PM   #23
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As i said in another post unfortunately i don't think there is much you can do to stop this type of incident. You can have airport type security at schools and armed guards. The only thing that will achieve is the shooter will go to a easier target school-buses-cinemas-shopping malls etc.

What the prime minister said here after a shooting incident.

Quote. He added: "You can't legislate to stop a switch flicking in someone's head and this sort of dreadful action taking place."
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Old December 17, 2012, 03:19 PM   #24
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We are up to 2 SROs (school resource officers) in my local district which turns out to have 37 educational facilities. The local PD has a total of less than 100 officers including the SROs. The SROs are the most trained officers in the city and as one told me, he has the best job in the world, unless something happens. The SROs don't do anything not at schools other than training when school is in session (some holiday and summer schedule exceptions do exist, however) and holidays and summer often involve additional training.

In a crisis, these guys don't call 911. They don't radio for backup. They don't barricade doors. They don't coordinate incoming officers. They don't pull downed teachers and students from the line of fire. Their #1 job is to "squash" the threat as quickly as possible and without much regard for their own safety. This is done whilst being equipped with only typical patrol gear worn on the body. He can tackle, baton, pepper spray, strike, kick, or shoot the threat(s), and like the rest of those in the school, help for him comes in X number of minutes when the regular responders arrive.

Like the SRO said, it is a great job unless he has to respond and then it becomes an exceptionally high risk job.

The problem is, there is only a 1 in 19 chance a SRO is at a school here if a shooting should taking place. We need one at each school. We don't need "police stations" at each school, but definitely could use a SRO at one, but that would mean increasing the local department by 40%. I think it is a fine idea, but who will pay for it? Nobody likes funding the cops as it is.

If you think about it, the next time you go to argue about the taxes on your property being too high, you are helped reduce local funding that includes funding for the police (or does in my state).
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Old December 17, 2012, 03:37 PM   #25
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One image you have to overcome is the idea that anyone with either a repeating rifle with a high capacity magazine or any rifle with a telescopic sight is a potential mass murderer or a sniper, which is a sense, they are. Most such people are, up to a point, neither of those things. Then something snaps. These are usually not the same people who rob banks, unless I have a mistaken impression.

Once, almost at the same time Lindburgh flew the Atlantic, someone blew up a school with dynamite. Apparently it was easy to get dynamite at the time. Then, quietly, it was made more difficult to obtain explosives. Do you suppose there was a public outcry over that at the time, in the pre-internet age?
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