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Old December 19, 2012, 09:55 PM   #126
nate45
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Joe Manchin: ‘I’m so proud of the NRA’

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2012/1...#ixzz2FYXW4rG9

Quote:
Originally Posted by GEM View Post
Here's what a progun life long hunter Senator Manchin says:
Did you call him up yesterday Doctor? He sure changed his tune today.
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Old December 19, 2012, 10:13 PM   #127
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For ONE, I wish they'd stop describing the AR-15 and an ASSAULT RIFLE, which it is NOT.

These bozo, anti-gun politicians, most of which don't have an iota of firearms knowledge like Ms Feinstein, do not realize that an ASSAULT WEAPON is a SELECT-FIRE, MILITARY WEAPON? The AR-15 is nothing but a look-alike clone, semi-automatic rifle. It is NOT an assault weapon. Yet, every day the media refuses to call them out on this misinformation.

So why not ban all semi-automatic rifles?

The Second Amendment was written (and recently upheld by SCOTUS) that we are empowered to bear arms in potential defense to a tyrannical government.
And the AR-15 would be one of the weapons of choice for that job.

Need 30 rounds to hunt with/ Nope....

But if the goverment shows up at my door to confiscate my property by decree, there's gonna be a lot of bloodhshed. Hopefully, not mine.
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Old December 19, 2012, 10:34 PM   #128
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They are doing wrong and thats all there is to it.

Right here on this forum, there are the people who do and have populated the military, police forces, fire departments, hospitals, on and on. There are lawyers, professors, engineers, students, Democrats, Republicans and every other political stripe that write on this board. We are responsible, law abiding and have helped people, paid our taxes and served the country all our lives.

For persons like Sen. Feinstein, (who wouldn't even be around if it wasn't for people like those listed above) to insult us, by trying to disarm us, here in the land of our forefathers, the land they shed their blood for and the land they wrote and bestowed to their progeny our constitution and bill of rights, is beyond the pale.


"...but...but nate, you are getting too serious, we are just trying to pass sensible legislation to save the children."

No, you are trying to disarm the warrior class and its not being well received Sen. Feinstein.
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Old December 19, 2012, 10:42 PM   #129
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Quote:
For ONE, I wish they'd stop describing the AR-15 and an ASSAULT RIFLE, which it is NOT.
I wish people would stop calling Camaros and Mustangs sports cars. Ain't happening either.

The more rants I've read on FB during recent days, the more I'm convinced that the Assault Rifle terminology ship has sailed.

You're better off explaining the difference between full-auto and semi-auto, the fact that none of the recent mass shootings have involved full-auto weapons, the fact that plenty of law-abiding citizens own semi-autos- remarkably without anyone around them dying- and most importantly, that gun rights are a CIVIL RIGHTS issue and that the SCOTUS has shut the door on an outright ban on guns in common use, most likely INCLUDING semi-autos.

They can call it an assault rifle. They can call it a modern sporting rifle. They can call it Bob*, or a pink elephant. OK, real pink elephants might object when they learn that an FFL transfer is necessary to sell them to a nicer circus that's out of state, so I take that part back.

Tell them that the shooting really shocks you and your heart goes out to the families. You wish you could prevent things like that from happening. You wish the mass shootings would stop. However, banning assault rifles / modern sporting rifles / Bob* is not feasible, not effective, and lastly, not legally likely to stick.

*BobKSa, we like you. This is not about you. We realize you're not a gun. No hard feelings, kay?
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Old December 19, 2012, 11:52 PM   #130
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Quote:
Joe Manchin: ‘I’m so proud of the NRA’

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2012/1...#ixzz2FYXW4rG9

Quote:
Originally Posted by GEM
Here's what a progun life long hunter Senator Manchin says:
Did you call him up yesterday Doctor? He sure changed his tune today.
Sounds like backpedaling to me. I suspect that Manchin may have been testing the waters with his previous comments and that the water, being his constituents response, was a bit hotter than he liked. This is somewhat encouraging because if there's a public backlash against new gun control, I doubt that Feinstein (or anyone else for that matter) will manage to get a new AWB out of committee.
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Old December 20, 2012, 06:38 AM   #131
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I'm in the mental health business.

Their are a growing number of violent/threatening "ill" young people.

Because these kids enjoy special privacy protections, the rest of us remain largely unaware of their "special needs" issues.

Schools bumble along with these kids until they graduate them and unleash them on the rest of us..... with no warnings or preparations.

The schools and parents mostly rationalize and make excuses for the violent behavior all along the way... just like the abused spouse who makes excuses for her abusing husband (often blaming herself).

We need to have the ability to identify these violent tendencies openly and early.

I don't care if you have a disease (that's private), or some special "label" for your mind and behavior...... go ahead and keep that private..... but if you have a history of behaving violently in spite of efforts to stop it, you need to be well known and heavily restricted.

With violence, we should not worry about whether it is a part of your "special syndrome" or illness. That should be public informatoin.
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Old December 20, 2012, 08:06 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carguychris
Tell them that the shooting really shocks you and your heart goes out to the families. You wish you could prevent things like that from happening.
I could prevent things like this from happening. I would need a gun to do it though.
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Old December 20, 2012, 08:39 AM   #133
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New gun control may not be as easy as the media would have us believe. According to Fox News, the NRA is having record new membership registration.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...hool-shooting/
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Old December 20, 2012, 08:52 AM   #134
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Quote:
New gun control may not be as easy as the media would have us believe
I truly believe this too. We just have to hang in, continue to apply pressure to our elected officials, and wait until some of the highly emotional responses get tired.

That doesn't mean I'm not worried, but I have faith that cooler heads will prevail eventually.
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Old December 20, 2012, 09:34 AM   #135
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I love the idea of a Biden led "task force", i.e. a committee.

Committees don't get things done, and I don't think appointing Biden indicates that this has the priority status the exec alleges it has.
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Old December 20, 2012, 09:54 AM   #136
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When Joe Biden and Harry Reid get done reviewing the options. It will most likely quietly go away. Or some sort of mechanism for trying to better screen the mentally ill will be enacted. We should keep a close watch on that too, many anti-gunners think that anyone who possesses a firearm is mentally ill.
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Old December 20, 2012, 10:21 AM   #137
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If I were to bet - I would think what will occur is:

1. Better funding and implementation of mental health records for NICS. Cho would have been caught if Virginia courts and the state were on their game.

2. Mandatory NICS for private sales at shows. That will move private sales away from these commercial venues.

Could be wrong - but bans of assault weapons (the name fight has been lost) and mag capacity bans will be fought off.

One interesting thing is that some strong antifolks - Obama and McCarthy both said that having guns to protect the home is legit. This is not the position of Biden, Schumer, Bloomers, Feinstein, etc.

Every progun statement should start by thanking those two for acknowledging the legitimacy of the SD argument from Heller and McDonald and now Posner's statements.

That might split the antis a bit on the solidarity of their position and take total bans off the table. It would start with some guns being legit.

However, I hope the NRA is smart enough to do more than rant.
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Old December 20, 2012, 10:21 AM   #138
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The mental illness issue has gone way overboard in the wrong direction, and I will give a glaring example.

I am a sub teacher. Why working at a middle school I had a student with mental problems hold a scissors to the throat of an other student. This pair of scissors was not the child safe variety, it was the sharp two knives riveted together kind. I managed to quell the situation, and the student let go of the scissors. Well, he was back to school in three weeks. Come to find out if this was a regular non special ed student he would have been expelled, but different standards applied to this student since he was special ed. He was considered "at risk". I asked; what about the students around him, aren't they the ones at risk? This should have been aggravated assault with intent to commit great bodily harm at minimum, but there was no police report made, no nothing. This is the kind of mentally ill minor that is "at risk" of committing a mass shooting, and this is how it was handled.
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Old December 20, 2012, 10:46 AM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GEM
1. Better funding and implementation of mental health records for NICS. Cho would have been caught if Virginia courts and the state were on their game.

2. Mandatory NICS for private sales at shows. That will move private sales away from these commercial venues.
I'm as pro-RKBA as one can get and I would gladly support the above suggestions. The gun shows are filled with FFL's who can run an NICS check.

I know, I know, it costs more, its inconvenient. I know, I know we're contentious about who we sell to, we want to be free, etc. Well, I'd rather pay a little more, than see a firearm easily get in the hands of a felon, or someone who has been adjudicated mentally ill. Can they still steal, or buy one? Yes, but the harder it is the better.

The NRA, the GOA, the JPFO and all the rest, can make the case for assault rifles and high cap magazines, but they can't make the case for not making it harder for felons and the mentally ill to acquire them.
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Old December 20, 2012, 11:06 AM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
...bans of assault weapons (the name fight has been lost) ...
That victory only stands permanently if you accept defeat.

English has useful words for these items, i.e. rifle and carbine. Accepting a homely, pseudo-germanic tangential growth from statutory argot seems unnecessary.
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Old December 20, 2012, 11:23 AM   #141
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IF there is to be an AWB, and I don't believe there will be, let it be a complete and sweeping ban to make the work of the court simpler.
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Old December 20, 2012, 11:28 AM   #142
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Question:

Does anyone know if the shooters in the other tragic incidents were the actual legal owner of the firearm used? Because I don't believe the 20 year old shooter in the CN school was the gun owner. Maybe the issue is more of a control the people, rather than control the gun.
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Old December 20, 2012, 11:43 AM   #143
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@9mm1033

Adam Lanza did not legally purchase the firearms, he murdered his mother in her sleep and then stole her legally purchased firearms to carry out his heinous crime. In this case, he did attempt to purchase a firearm, but was denied, so the regulations already in place prevented him from LEGALLY obtaining a firearm, it did not however keep him from finding other means to obtain said firearms utilized in the Sandy Hook Elementry shooting.

In the case of the Tuscon shooting, Gabrielle Giffords was the victim of a deranged criminal who had no prior criminal record, but due to the lack of medical files verifying that he was indeed mentally unstable (If I recall correctly, he was diagnosed and being mentally ill, but it never made it outside of his clinical files, though I could be wrong). He legally purchased his firearms and later carried out his attack on Congresswoman Giffords.

The Colorado Shooting, James Holmes legally purchased his firearms, he had no prior record with local law enforcement agencies nor any record of being mentally unstable if I'm correct.

I'm pulling this from memory, so if I'm wrong on any of this, please, someone correct me.
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Old December 20, 2012, 11:59 AM   #144
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Without going through them all - it's mixed. The ones below legal age obviously are breaking the law.

The adults usually are legal purchases.

In some like Kip Kingle - the parents bought him the Glock but technically they owned it.

BTW - here's another pro-gun Senator:

http://www.politico.com/story/2012/1...348.html?hp=r2

Scott Brown - probably wants to replace Kerry, so setting himself up on the high moral ground.
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Old December 20, 2012, 01:30 PM   #145
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Quote:
BTW - here's another pro-gun Senator:

http://www.politico.com/story/2012/1...348.html?hp=r2

Scott Brown - probably wants to replace Kerry, so setting himself up on the high moral ground.
Scott Brown, IMHO, was always luke warm at best on 2A issues anyway. He supported the MA state AWB prior to being elected to the US Senate. My suscpicion is that he softened his stance on gun control to win Tea Party support while campaigning.
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Old December 20, 2012, 01:47 PM   #146
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It is hard for any rational person to look at the numbers on gun violence compared to other types of losses of life and say we need more gun control... The antis always come from an emotional appeal because they cannot win in a fight of logic.

Honestly other than better mental health care I do not see any significant change that can be made that would in anyway increase safety other than more legal carriers and less restrictions on where you can carry..
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Old December 20, 2012, 02:07 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BGutzman
It is hard for any rational person to look at the numbers on gun violence compared to other types of losses of life and say we need more gun control... The antis always come from an emotional appeal because they cannot win in a fight of logic.
And because that appeal is currently so powerful, even though the appeal is cynical and manipulative. It is a legitimate response to such an event to feel that it is horrible and sad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BGutzman
Honestly other than better mental health care I do not see any significant change that can be made that would in anyway increase safety other than more legal carriers and less restrictions on where you can carry.
Those are aren't small steps, and I believe it is worth setting them forth publicly. It is hard to beat something with nothing.
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Old December 20, 2012, 03:35 PM   #148
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"better mental health care"

Unfortunately, the science for reliable mental health care doesn't exist. We're not even close.

Therefore, habitually violent and threatening people.... be they thugs, bullies, autistic kids, or the mentally ill.... need to be identified and "marked" such that they may not access firearms or other weapons.

Most schools are well aware of their "bad boys", but the fact that they have Special Education labels makes their violence private..... and so we routinely release them on society.

The numbers of the thug-diva-mentally ill types is growing. Parents are failing to parent, and kids that would normally just be a bit flakey are turned into monsters.

This, in my opinion, is a new phenomenon and this first generations of these tempermental kids are just being released within the past 10 years.
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Old December 20, 2012, 04:28 PM   #149
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An interesting perspective is that all the support and special circumstances allow more affluent kids (middle class and up) to make it through high school.

That level of support is not available in college or the job world and they crash.

The psychologist noted that poor kids with similar problem are burned out, hit the criminal justice system early on, etc. They don't go to the college or work environment where they fail dramatically and some become monsters.
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Old December 20, 2012, 05:08 PM   #150
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Another progun Senator sees the truth :

http://www.politico.com/story/2012/1...45.html?hp=r15

Bob Casey in PA.
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