The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old December 16, 2012, 02:29 PM   #26
mrbatchelor
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2010
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by nate45 View Post
... but banks still have armed guards and tight security. If we can post armed guards to protect pieces of paper we say have value, then we can post armed guards to protect our children.
When was the last time anyone was in a bank that had a real armed guard at the door? Perhaps in major metropolitan areas, but certainly not in smaller areas.

The bags of money have an exploding dye pack in them, and the tellers just hand them over no questions asked. Nobody shoots it out.

I was actually inside a NationsBank in San Francisco several years ago that was robbed while I was in an account manager's office. All he did was look at his phone, say excuse me, get up and close the office door, then ask me to sit and wait while he made a call. He was on the phone listening intently for several minutes saying yes, no, yes, yes, no, and never giving me any indication what was happening. (Other than obviously something was very wrong.)

After a few minutes he apologized, opened the door, explained the bank had just been robbed, and he had kept me there for safety. Standard policy.

Steal a million dollars in paper money from a bank and the treasury replaces it to the bank. Steal one life in a shoot out and no one replaces it, ever.

Yes, we need answers. We need policies. We need solutions. But the bank analogy fails.

We need better access to mental health resources in this country. And quite honestly, as one married to a mental health provider, I know that we need to modify the way people get "tagged for life" with mental issues. Grief counseling because your sister or brother who was estranged from the family took their own life can get the wrong check box on your medical insurance and you'll get blocked from gun ownership. My wife is very careful about what she does and doesn't record in a medical chart. You have to put enough to get the insurer to pay, but you do not want to put so much that inaccurate BS follows the patient around for decades.

The system is broken. So, as above, start the petition for better mental health services.

MB
mrbatchelor is offline  
Old December 16, 2012, 02:42 PM   #27
mayosligo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2006
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posts: 301
I have seen talks of an Executive Order to ban assault weapons and create other new or revisited gun restrictions. How do we think this would work out? POTUS has done this before.
mayosligo is offline  
Old December 16, 2012, 02:43 PM   #28
bfskinnerpunk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2009
Posts: 201
The demographics in the USA is changing. This isn't the 70's, 80's, or even the 90's demographics anymore. It's a whole new crowd and mentality.

In addition, the "makers" are now outnumbered by the "takers" and we saw that in this election. We have an emotional, infantilized citizenry, now. Big government loves that kinda crowd.

The members of forums like this are very different than most. I believe that you folks fail to appreciate the willingness of the modern American to A) give up their freedoms and B) demand entitlements just for breathing the air, here.

There is very little, in my opinion, to prevent our government from creating strong controls on firearms. I just don't see any resistance on the part of the public.

Titillating tragedies that are hyped even further by the media create the illusion that our kids are in danger nationwide to rampant shootings.

sigh
bfskinnerpunk is offline  
Old December 16, 2012, 02:45 PM   #29
Jack_Bauer24
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 139
+1 to Nate45

That is the only way, anything less and it will happen again.
__________________
"When the people fear the govt there is tyranny, when the govt fears the people there is liberty."
Thomas Jefferson
Jack_Bauer24 is offline  
Old December 16, 2012, 03:11 PM   #30
Dr Big Bird PhD
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2012
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 778
Quote:
Armed guards are part of a business model based on profit. Since schools are not profit based, funding comes from taxpayers who are not and have never been willing to pay the price for such things.
Many schools border on bankruptcy already. Armed guards are not a viable option
I find it interesting that you can make this perceptive analysis yet ignore the overall implications of "non-profit" and "government controlled business".

Why does no one ask the question, why are we in a deficit crisis? Why does America churn out such uneducated children? Why is there a shift in youth feelings toward government intervention in our society? Why is there a misconception that the only proper self-defense is to make the tools used in assaults illegal rather than learning to fight for yourself on even grounds? Why is there so much ignorance on firearms? Why is our country slowly deteriorating into democratic socialism rather than a Republic of capitalism?

It's the same answer as to why gun free zones exists. The same reason why our financial sector is riddled with sub-prime spending. It is the same reason why President Barack Obama has been re-elected.

I agree with democrats, and bureaucrats. No gun, other than military and LE personnel, should ever be present on government run property. However, government run property should be entirely restricted to that which government functions on. Legislation, courts, cabinets, etc. The government has blinded everyone with this altruistic notion of good will. That people have a right to a certain market product. They tell you that healthcare is a right, that education is a right, that there should be no profit in such markets. They believe one the largest fallacies of the resultant mass spread of Keynesian economics. That something can exist without a profit motive. That a profit motive is in fact an aspect of sadism on society, leaching wealth off others by selling products at a premium rather than by need. They will tell you that you don't need guns, like you don't need extreme wealth, or a gas-guzzler. The greatest need comes first.

And then people wonder why those markets experience inflation and bankruptcy first. They wonder why their children come home from school and go to occupy protests, proclaim a tool is inherently evil, and want a classist society where the rich are burdened with blame, the poor receive aid, and congress will save us from ourselves. Then we, the Americans of the 2nd Amendment, are so confused when our god-given, constitutionally recognized rights are infringed.
__________________
I told the new me,
"Meet me at the bus station and hold a sign that reads: 'Today is the first day of the rest of your life.'"
But the old me met me with a sign that read: "Welcome back."
Who you are is not a function of where you are. -Off Minor
Dr Big Bird PhD is offline  
Old December 16, 2012, 03:20 PM   #31
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,791
Quote:
I find it interesting that you can make this perceptive analysis yet ignore the overall implications of "non-profit" and "government controlled business".
You could say that I ignore the over-all implications because they are not on-topic for our forum.

Hint.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old December 16, 2012, 05:56 PM   #32
Gary L. Griffiths
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2000
Location: AZ, IA, WA
Posts: 1,297
Quote:
Armed guards are not a viable option.
But having weapons and armor in strategically located lockers around the campus is. Properly trained volunteer teachers and staff would have keys and be able to quickly respond to a threat. The cost would be minimal -- only the price of the weapon, body armor, locker, and training.
__________________
Violence is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and valorous feeling which believes that nothing is worth violence is much worse. Those who have nothing for which they are willing to fight; nothing they care about more than their own personal safety; are miserable creatures who have no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of those better than themselves. Gary L. Griffiths, Chief Instructor, Advanced Force Tactics, Inc. (Paraphrasing John Stuart Mill)
Gary L. Griffiths is offline  
Old December 16, 2012, 06:12 PM   #33
BGutzman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2009
Location: Frozen Tundra
Posts: 2,414
The problem is most people are ignorant of guns... Oh my goodness most people just about load britches at the word "gun" said by a stranger. Enough people aren't growning up with shooting and gun safety as part of their childhood.

I have heard several people including a major network reporter say point blank that the 2A was a 300 year old amendment that has no place in todays society. Funny it seems to be applied to some other amendments as it fits there needs also..

I see a society that condones things, I wont touch on, except to say they go against all the traditions and values I was taught and grew up with. I don't know where it all ends, and I cant debate it here, but to say it all has an effect. Average people are taught guns are "Always" a threat, never good and never used by trustworthy people... Complete crap..

The media couldn't be less gun friendly and all of it has an effect... I worry for the day when we are all disarmed and sheeple is all we are... My signature block says what I believe... Freedom was killed by ignorance...

Normal / Traditional is being framed as extreme and prejudicial and things that were once fringe are though of as main stream and proper... This applies to many, many things..
__________________
Molon Labe

Last edited by BGutzman; December 16, 2012 at 06:38 PM.
BGutzman is offline  
Old December 16, 2012, 06:51 PM   #34
KMAX
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,091
Quote:
I see a society that condones things, I wont touch on, except to say they go against all the traditions and values I was taught and grew up with. I don't know where it all ends, and I cant debate it here, but to say it all has an effect. Average people are taught guns are "Always" a threat, never good and never used by trustworthy people... Complete crap..
Normal / Traditional is being framed as extreme and prejudicial and things that were once fringe are though of as main stream and proper... This applies to many, many things..
Much is condoned and much is excused or blame/responsibility is shifted. No real need to touch on specifics.
__________________
This is my gun. There are many like her, but this one is mine.

I'm not old. I'm CLASSIC!
KMAX is offline  
Old December 16, 2012, 10:05 PM   #35
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,634
Quote:
I don't think it's wise to pretend over 100,000 people are something to ignore though either.
Give me 1,000 people with the knowledge to use anonymous proxies and IP spoofing, and I can get more "signatures" on a petition than that. These aren't an accurate indicator of public opinion, and I truly doubt anyone in the administration is actually taking the time to read them.

Quote:
I have seen talks of an Executive Order to ban assault weapons and create other new or revisited gun restrictions.
It hasn't been done via EO before because EO's can't be used to enact legislation. That's outside the Executive Branch's powers. EO's exist to clarify and modify enforcement of existing laws.

If this sort of thing were tried, the Supreme Court would pounce on it like starving hyenas.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Old December 16, 2012, 10:31 PM   #36
motorhead0922
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 30, 2010
Location: Missouri
Posts: 524
Actually, the armed guards in school would be free. There are untold numbers of teachers, principals, custodians, etc who would carry at school if allowed. A good friend who teaches and has had his CCW for decades recently petitioned his superintendent for permission, and was denied. The super gave him the usual fantasy that they have procedures in place, blah, blah, blah. As we just saw, procedures do nothing when the criminal is determined. The teacher in the classroom is the last line of defense, and all they can bring to a gunfight is their unprotected bodies.
motorhead0922 is offline  
Old December 16, 2012, 10:32 PM   #37
mayosligo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2006
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posts: 301
Thanks for clarification on the EO Tom.
mayosligo is offline  
Old December 16, 2012, 10:34 PM   #38
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 11,832
Thanks to the information age, everyone can express their views with the touch of a button or three. Nothing requiring much effort, such as actually writing a letter and mailing it.

100,000 people pushing a button to say "add me to the petition" on their cell phone (and likely a huge percentage of them under voting age) is an indicator,but not a strong one.

Those in power know this, and while they will be all to happy to trot out their usual demands, or even increase them, even they know that instant passage of the legislation is not good governance, it is bowing to mob rule.

There will be much outcry, people will demand "something" be done. But what can be done and what should be done are two vastly different things.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old December 16, 2012, 10:39 PM   #39
teeroux
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2006
Posts: 1,494
Quote:
Armed guards are part of a business model based on profit. Since schools are not profit based, funding comes from taxpayers who are not and have never been willing to pay the price for such things.
Many schools border on bankruptcy already. Armed guards are not a viable option.

My hometown school has 450-ish kids, K-12. Two buildings. Two armed guards, full time, plus part-time coverage, say 4 total, conservatively. Average salary of say 25k. That's $100,000. The entire population is only a couple thousand people. You'd be asking them to pay $500/person. A family of 4 would be paying $2,000 a year. No way that's happening.
We do that very thing here. Its the whole parish not single towns the budget is divided in. Every township/city has the same coverage. Unfortunately its only middle and high schools. Maybe a few more mills on the tax renewal and we can budget some of our Deputies in every school. The program started with a Federal Grant and when the money ran out the School board and Sheriff's office worked together to budget it in. We have 28 Deputies assigned as school resourse officers full time.
teeroux is offline  
Old December 17, 2012, 12:00 AM   #40
jason_iowa
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 30, 2011
Posts: 686
Obama is not interested in taking guns. The NRA is as bad as the anti gun establishment neither one is helping our gun rights. You should believe the crap the NRA says about as much as the anti's do. We have the Constitution on our side. We have a population in both parties both as citizens and politicians that are not going to support this.

As far as most of you are concerned I'm the worst kind of godless liberal and I am. I also spent more then my fair share of time here and around the world defending ALL of the Constitution not just the bits and pieces that I like and believe me there are parts I would like to cut out just like anyone else but that's not the way it works. Calm is what we need. Reactionary behavior is for the fringe not sound minded, intelligent people with a strong case.

Let the anti's be reactionary. Let them wear themselves out. Let them look heartless for using this tragedy for a cause. Don't be like them. Our cause is to important and to just. I believe we all support anti violence so lets guide the discussion where it needs to go. Stop the violence. Tools don't create, commit, cause or condone violent acts. Violence here and around the world is caused mostly by inequality. When people don't feel safe and secure they act out. We watch it happen around the world on a daily basis. Fix that and it solves 99% of the violence in the world.

Last edited by Tom Servo; December 17, 2012 at 12:10 AM. Reason: Excised intemperate language
jason_iowa is offline  
Old December 17, 2012, 07:19 AM   #41
Hal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 1998
Location: Ohio USA
Posts: 7,445
Quote:
Thanks to the information age, everyone can express their views with the touch of a button or three. Nothing requiring much effort, such as actually writing a letter and mailing it.
hmmmm....that's something I have to mull over quite a bit.
On one hand, a petition site like "We the People" could be a very hard brutally efficient way of shortcutting the letter writing process.
On the other hand, it lacks credibility.

The former is an aspect I never considered.

The latter may only be because the site is still in it's infancy, so to speak.
I'll have to look back at all the petitions submitted to date and see if there's a clue.
Thankfully, the site has only been up for a litle over a year/I'm retired and have nothing much else going on right now .


@ Nate45 - no offence taken at all - we're cool. I just didn't want the thread to drift into areas that. for right now. are better left alone.
Hal is offline  
Old December 17, 2012, 03:13 PM   #42
TomFlanag
Junior Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2012
Posts: 2
100,000 signatures

Agreed, these White House petitions rarely get any attention or any productive outcomes. The White House has commented on this petition that it is the fastest petition ever signed.

Therefore we have taken their petition and changed just a few words on it to be in favor of gun rights.

Mental health kills people, not guns.

This petition will be promoted this week through forums and social media all week. Please spread it through you favorite forums and share on Facebook and Twitter.

Sign the petition now.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pet...*****=shorturl
TomFlanag is offline  
Old December 17, 2012, 03:20 PM   #43
Hal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 1998
Location: Ohio USA
Posts: 7,445
Quote:
(in China school children are murdered with knives).
No one was killed in the knife attack on the school children in China.
Hal is offline  
Old December 17, 2012, 03:34 PM   #44
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,791
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hal View Post
No one was killed in the knife attack on the school children in China.
"The" knife attack?

There's hardly been only one.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schoo...a_(2010–2011)

That link is for a two year period. A google search of "school attacks" will bring up a list of dozens, at least 15 of which have been in "oriental places", I didn't check the locations, I'm going by the language/alphabet of the name.

The simple truth that needs to be spoken and reinforced is that these incidents are not:

1)New
2)Uniquely American
3)Gun related
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old December 17, 2012, 04:03 PM   #45
Hal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 1998
Location: Ohio USA
Posts: 7,445
My apologies.

My search for "school violence" the other day only turned up the once incident that occured last Friday.
I was trying to get the point across to someone that there's no such thing as "gun violence", there's only "violence"


I do thank you for the extra "ammunition" provided by that link.
Hal is offline  
Old December 18, 2012, 02:38 AM   #46
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 11,832
Quote:
Quote:
Thanks to the information age, everyone can express their views with the touch of a button or three. Nothing requiring much effort, such as actually writing a letter and mailing it.

hmmmm....that's something I have to mull over quite a bit.
On one hand, a petition site like "We the People" could be a very hard brutally efficient way of shortcutting the letter writing process.
On the other hand, it lacks credibility.

The former is an aspect I never considered.
In the dark and distant past, way before our current computer & cell phone age, I spoke at some length with some politicans and newspaper editors, and they were consistant about one thing. A written letter, delivered through the mail, carried the most weight. Because they knew for every letter writer, there were dozens to hundreds of people who felt the same way (no matter which way it was, or about what) that didn't bother to write.

Phone calls were also listened to, but were not given the same weight of opinion. 10 or 20 to 1 was the "value" of phone calls to written letters in those days.

Even today, an e-mail or a text, or an online petition does not impress them as much as a written letter, I have no idea what they consider the ratio today, but the fact is that even a huge seeming number of "hits" on a subject is only a tiny fraction of a percentage of the nation, and high electronic numbers on an issue today do not mean similar support for the same position the week after next.

This most recent mass murder is horrifying, but it is not new, not uniquely American, and not nearly as common as the media leads us to believe.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old December 18, 2012, 09:48 AM   #47
Hal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 1998
Location: Ohio USA
Posts: 7,445
My recent experience with a written letter speaks of a different story.
My wife works in the MR/DD field for the county.

My wife and one of her clients wrote to the POS about how recent budget cuts in funding had caused her to lose her access to physical therapy and pleaded for some reconsideration.

She got a very encouraging form letter back saying how wonderful it was that she was 100% behind and efforts to control spending.

IOW - exactly the opposite.

I wonder just how far written letters go any more?
Sounds like a good idea for a thread eh?

Quote:
In the dark and distant past, way before our current computer & cell phone age
Yep - I remember the dark and distant past of rotary phones and music on AM radios instead of talk shows .

I've been mulling over the idea of the White House petitions and how they could be incorporated.
Creating a database out of those online petitions would be child's play. The formating is perfect for importing into a searchable database.
Contrast that to written letters, which would either have to be scanned in or manually entered.
A single response could then be generated to each signer also instead of generating individual responses.

It's (as I said above) a brutally efficient system. The "geek" in me admires it.

Make no mistake, the information age has a very dark underbelly. Knowledge is power and he who controls the flow of knowledge wields a tremendous amount of power...

Last edited by Hal; December 18, 2012 at 10:14 AM.
Hal is offline  
Old December 18, 2012, 10:39 AM   #48
Patriot86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2010
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,293
Call me paranoid but I feel nervious about adding my name and address to what is basically a "People to raid once the gun grab begins" list.
__________________
"....The swords of others will set you your limits".
Patriot86 is offline  
Old December 18, 2012, 12:16 PM   #49
rem44m
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 18, 2011
Location: Utah
Posts: 171
Your paranoid
__________________
I'd rather have it and not need it then need it and not have it.

"If gun owners are as violent as anti-gunners said we are, there wouldn't be any anti's left"
rem44m is offline  
Old December 18, 2012, 12:18 PM   #50
jknight8907
Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2006
Posts: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by rem44m View Post
Your paranoid
His paranoid what?

Sent via teletype
jknight8907 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.18542 seconds with 8 queries